The Legend Of Zelda - General Thread

Making children uncomfortable since 2000.

I got the Majoras Mask DLC for Hyrule Warriors (yeah, it's already out in Europe), and I gotta say, Young Link is EXTREMELY fun to play as!

"It also pioneered the "three dungeons -> split -> five or more dungeons" structure that games such as Ocarina of Time, Skyward Sword, and even its own sequel would wind up using in the future"

Sometimes I think that's more of a Franchise Original Sin, considering how many times it's been used.

it basically is. the series has relied on the link to the past template for a bit too long. that's part of the reason why i like majora's mask, it completely eschews that and still manages to be a great zelda.

At the same time, I can't get too mad- It really is a fairly good formula from a game design perspective. Three warm-ups and then five serious matches, y'know?

Yeah. And besides, Skyward Sword didn't really follow it since the puzzle solving only really stopped when you were in The Sky (or when you were backtracking). Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks also didn't follow it due to having a central dungeon you keep returning to. Wind Waker technically didn't follow it since the formula is 3 > Master Sword > 5 while it was 3 > Master Sword > 2.

Keep in mind that, before ALTTP, the dungeons just generally got harder as you went (kind of) with no special structure to them. The classic Zelda formula allows for a much better story since it actually has a structure. You have the first three dungeons where you get introduced to the world and basic mechanics and whatnot, your goal changes or the stakes are raised while you get the Master Sword (Zelda is kidnapped, Hyrule falls to Ganondorf, Tetra is Princess Zelda and the stuff with the Master Sword, Zelda sacrifices her life to save Midna, Zelda is revealed to be the Goddess Hylia and goes back into the past). That's also around the time the game's major gimmick usually comes into play (world hopping, time travel, being able to switch between Wolf and Hylian freely, the Goddess Harp I guess).

It's a patter, yes, but it's a comfortable one that I never understood the desire to change. While ignoring it every now and then is wise, there are still plenty of things you can do with that pattern and setting limits on large things like that lets you tinker more with small things. Conversely, tinkering with the large things usually means having to keep the small things the same due to limitations in deadlines, manpower, and various other factors.

If they wanted to experiment with tackling dungeons in almost any order you choose, I think they'd rely on the main formula so that way they can make sure it works properly on a smaller scale in a more comfortable pattern before trying it in a large way without the pattern.

eh, i wouldn't mind seeing them diverting from that more for a while. Even a solid framework gets stale if it's repeated ad nauseum with nothing to differentiate it.

TWW does have a Meta Twist in regards of the quest of the pearls, I'll give you that.

You know what I'd like to see? A Zelda game where every single dungeon has a different and unique quest purpose. Okami is a bit like that: There are seven dungeons, but each has a different purpose in terms of story and gameplay.

IMO, Okami was better at being a Zelda game than most recent entries in the franchise. Even if the story pacing was kinda whack and the combat wasn't all that great.

Wind Waker also had a cut dungeon or two, so that messed up the pattern. SS didn't really follow the pattern, since it's 3 dungeons, revisit the locations for 3 more dungeons, then a big stretch without any dungeons before the last one.

Also, the Faron Woods, Eldin Volcano and Lanayru Desert were all kinda quasi-dungeons unto themselves. There's a lot more required puzzle-solving in those areas than is typical for Zelda overworlds.

Basing on the moment when the Master Sword is obtained, the dungeon pattern would be:

• ALTTP: 3 —-> 8 —-> 1
• OOT: 3 —-> 5 —-> 1
• TWW: 3 —-> 3 —-> 1
• TP: 3 —-> 4 —-> 2
• SS: 6 —-> 1

Of course it's not exactly the same in all games; there has to be some variation.

In the case of PH, it would be 4 —-> 3 —-> 1 if we replace the Master Sword with the Phantom one.

edited 1st Feb '15 9:35:51 AM by MyFinalEdits

I think it's a good formula so I'm not complaining. I hope Zelda U blurs the line between dungeon and overworld though. SS already worked towards doing that and it wound up being one of my favorite aspects but it still had a clear division between entering the overworld and entering the dungeon. In U I think they should just avoid transitions entirely. Just make the dungeons a specific region of the landscape or something.

That's one thing I liked about Star Fox Adventures, where the dungeon areas were intertwined with the overworld ones. You know that open-world place called Walled City? Yup, that was actually a dungeon.

If nothing else, Anouma has very vaguely hinted at there possibly being at least one boss fought on the overworld- He reportedly has been inspired by the way the Giant Bosses in Hyrule Warriors get to move around freely on the battlefield, a very broad area no matter what.

just bought a wii u =O

i'll finally be able to play hyrule warriors =O

yay!

That was the comment that got me excited about Zelda U. There's a lot of potential with making boss fights more a part of the world. For example, you're at the end of the Fire Temple, and King Dodongo appears. The first part of the fight is standard "throw bombs in his mouth and dodge his attacks" fare, but then the arena erupts, Dodongo escapes and heads towards a nearby town (presumably Kakariko), and you have to chase him down on horseback in a mix between the Goht, King Bulbin, and Imprisoned battles. It could be really cool.

You reach what appears to be the boss chamber and the tiles lurch under your feet. You frantically climb, roll and scramble your way through the corridors as they start to flex and tilt nauseously. When you finally burst into the open air, you discover that the temple itself has animated and begun its march for Hyrule Castle.

Now that would be awesome!

Honestly, the big thing I want is for them to tone down the amount of puzzles. I loved Skyward Sword's puzzles (best in the series, IMO), but a lot of the puzzles were incredibly simple and more designed to take up your time. They just need to limit it to the more complex and/or original stuff (like the Timeshift Stones, raising the Buddha statue) while mixing that with a slightly more mazelike design.

im fine with like, whatever.

i'll complain once i experience like, whatever.

Or try to toy with the player's expectations. You know that puzzle in the last dungeon in TP where you had to turn off the candle? Things like that.

That, and more combat and more obstacles. Take a look at Ocarina of Time.

I assume that the open world nature of Zelda U might give us larger HW style boss fights on the open world, sorta like the dragon fights in Skyrim. Maybe, anyway.

A lot of the puzzles in Zelda had since overstayed their welcome and weren't really puzzles so much as time-wasters. At this point, lighting all the torches in a room to open a door has become little more than a formality.