Battle Scowler
Heh, don't sweat it Gallowglasser, glad to have you on board 
Dog and Pony Show
I just want to point out that your avatar is 100% perfect for this thread, Buttercup.
“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
Battle Scowler
Heh, I 'spose it is. John is verbose. Working on the Resurrection right now.
Finished the Crucifixion, finally. Also, to answer your question from earlier, Hell is not addressed in the mysteries.
edited 28th Jun '10 11:06:23 PM by Buttercupistiny
"Let your religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair."
I was catholic and a Catholic's son, yet I converted to Arianism when I realized that the trinity was a construct created by misreading certain passages in scriptures. Yet then I realized that diverse passages in scriptures were similarly misinterpreted or contradictory, so I was forced by my love of logic to leave the faith of my ancestors. I hope that my grandfather forgives me for this abandonment of the faith that he loved, and accepts the libations that I offer to his spirit.
Butter Cup: It is my hope that thou art not annoyed by my comments on this thread. Didst thou think hard about the quotations from scripture that I P Med to thee? I will not hate thy faith, for it was the faith of my grandfather, unless thou urgest the veneration of St. James the Moor and Indian Slayer, or defendst King Reccared, whom I to this day call Thrice Damned Reccared.
edited 29th Jun '10 6:19:53 AM by terrkerr
Dog and Pony Show
^ Hey, it's rude to call someone thou unless you know them intimately.
“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
Is that cake frosting?
Interesting thread, add me as one of the Catholic tropers.
Since we were talking about obscure saints, I figured I could as well mention my favourite one: Saint Cheremon of Nilopolis. The little that is known about his story goes as follows: he was the bishop of Nilopolis, and during the persecution of Decius he and many of his followers fled the city. However, pretty much all of them - including Cheremon himself, although as far as I know no one bothered to record how he precisely died - were devoured from beasts or died from hunger before reaching safety, and that was it. No miracles, no signs of special favor from God, no heavenly visions, not even a brave, bizarre, cruel death by which means he converted a bunch of pagans: just some guy who did his very best to avoid, you know, kicking the bucket, and who attempted to save his friends while he was at it. And he failed, utterly, and no one would remember him at all if not for a rather dry paragraph from Eusebius.
He is counted among the martyrs, even though by all accounts he did never resign himself to martyrdom - he kept trying to save his life and his followers' for as long as it looked vaguely possible, and probably for a rather long time afterwards.
Apart from this, there appears to be no data at all about his life and his deeds, but I really, really like him - I guess that I consider him the patron Saint of Shaggy Dog Stories, and I like to pray to him whenever I feel a bit overwhelmed by feelings of pointlessness.
edited 29th Jun '10 3:12:31 PM by Carciofus
But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
Eusebius was an Arian as was Emperor Constantine whom he baptized as an Arian. I will respect all catholic saints except for those who were allegedly sacrificed by Jews during the Middle Ages and ST. James the Moor and Indian Slayer, to say nothing of Thrice Damned Reccared.
Is that cake frosting?
I may be mistaken, but as far as I know it's not nearly as clear-cut as that. He certainly was influenced by Origen's and Arius' works, but as far as I know he never put himself above the Church's authority - in particular, he explicitly submitted to the Nicene creed.
In any case, he was a very interesting source of facts and histories about early Christianity.
But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
Is that cake frosting?
Gah, double post.
edited 29th Jun '10 3:30:43 PM by Carciofus
But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
Indeed thou mayst be right, but the fact that he was Pro-Arian suggests that Arianism was more than just a fringe cult - at one time it had powerful backers and many supporters.
Sob! Thrice Damned Reccared! Sob!
edited 29th Jun '10 3:33:51 PM by terrkerr
Is that cake frosting?
Who is suggesting that Arianism was just a "fringe cult", anyway? I mean, it was one of the most widespread heresies of early Christianity, with a considerable number of believers...
However - and please don't get me wrong, I am not trying to police you - this is the Buttercup Is Catholic thread, not the Terrkerr Was Arian one, and I am not really sure that it is the place for evangelism in either direction.
It is clear that you feel strongly about the subject and you are obviously very learned - _way_ more than I am, certainly, although that's not saying much - about early Church history, and I would definitely like to discuss the topic with you (not today, though, I have to catch a plane in a few hours). But doing it here, I fear, would just be going to derail the thread and annoy pretty much everyone.
edited 29th Jun '10 10:25:43 PM by Carciofus
But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
Zzzzzzzzzz
^ Yes, please, terrkerr. If you want to talk about Arianism and why youfollow that path feel free to make a thread for it. This one is about the Roman Catholic faith.
@Carciofus, The only requirement for being counted a "martyr" is that they person was persecuted or died for the faith. It soundslike Cheremon falls under the "was persecuted" easily and can be considered to have "died for his faith" since if he'd given it up he'd probably have been okay.
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Is that cake frosting?
^ I agree about Cheremon, of course. I just thought it was refreshing to find a Martyr who tried his very best, and then some, to _avoid_ martyrdom for him and his friends.
But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
Dog and Pony Show
We're not even all Roman Catholics here. I'm Lutheran, by a quirk of my parents' temperaments (Dad was Roman Catholic but lapsed). The thing is, this thread is for Buttercup to educate interested parties in Catholic practice. Proselytizing would drive up the signal-to-noise ratio until this turns into a generalized internet religious debate.
“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
Zzzzzzzzzz
No, it's not that you have to be Roman Catholic to participate in the thread. But the thread is mainly about Roman Catholicism, not "I want to talk about [insert non-RC religion here] now."
edited 30th Jun '10 12:30:36 AM by Madrugada
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Dog and Pony Show
I thought I said that.
“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
Zzzzzzzzzz
Yeah, I mis-read it. Sorry.
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Fair enough. I humbly beg the forgiveness of all involved for creating bad feelings in this thread. I shall start a new thread when I have time. Please do not hate me.
Sorry for bringing a topic from page 6, but something started to bother me after reading that part of the discussion:
About Purgatory / Hell. Is there an exact requirement set (described on the Bible or otherwise canonical for Roman Catholicism) that determines who goes which place?
It depends on the person and the will to repent for his/her sins or after commiting a grave fault (and not confessing it) you're marked for Hell and can't change it?
Oh, by the way... I've always wondered about the purpose of hell. From what I've read, at the start it was the place where the fallen angels were cast, but no real mention of "sending a soul to hell" is ever done or why should a human soul be sent there. - Even Cain is "only" condemned to wander the Earth - So... is it some kind of prison? containment place? any other thing?
edited 30th Jun '10 9:54:53 AM by Vexelius
Hell is where the damned go, in other words, those who did not die in a state of grace (unconfessed mortal sins). That's why Confession is important - my Missal states it's "one of the sacraments on which the state of your eternal soul depends most." If you die without confessing your mortal sins or having resolved to confess them at the nearest possible opportunity, well...
Anyway, Hell is a definite place, and is characterized by utter estrangement from God. The nature of their confinement is disputed by perfectly orthodox theologians, but the Church definitely teaches that Hell is both a state of being and a place, where even the slightest pleasure is denied the damned.
Purgatory is where those of us who don't get to be saints go, if we died in a state of grace yet have temporal punishment for our venial sins and confessed mortal sins outstanding (which is why Extreme Unction/Anointing of the Sick often incorporates a confession if the dying person can reasonably confess). It's a purification, and it's suffering, but the soul willingly goes through it in a hope beyond all mortal telling, a hope for theosis and the ability to experience the Beatific Vision.
edited 30th Jun '10 10:14:19 AM by Cojuanco
Zzzzzzzzzz
^ Purgatory is also temporary, a stop-over on the way to Heaven. Hell is eternal, you don't serve your time and get out.
edited 30th Jun '10 3:58:29 PM by Madrugada
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Also, venial sins are distinct from mortal sins in that, if one thinks of their soul as analogous to our mortal bodies, a venial sin would be like a playground scrape, while a mortal sin would be like a spiritual stroke or heart attack. Confession is essentially spiritual surgery.
Dog and Pony Show
^ Funny you should say that, since in the secular 20th century, most people have replaced it with confessing to a type of doctor. 
I don't deny the psychiatrist his legitimate trade (contrary to popular belief, Catholics are in no way opposed to modern science), but one can be perfectly sane and still be spiritually hurting, and that is where the priest does his work in the confessional.
Also, you don't see psychiatrists usually giving themselves the same treatment they give their patients, as priests often do with the penances they give out.
I'm already Catholic, i was just letting it be known in a roundabout and vague manner. Sorry.