Dragon Age

Any particular reason why? Do you think Al was whiny normally and he got better when Hardened?

I can't think of why anyone would prefer Hardened Leliana, though.

Because she's being more honest to herself that way.

Hardened Alistair makes a better King, and I always make him the sole ruler. Besides, he doesn't get all dark or anything.

Hardened Leliana is mostly to line her up with the supplementary material at this point.

edited 30th Jul '16 6:12:18 PM by VeryMelon

Fair point about Al.

I can imagine lining Leliana up with the sequels but what does the supplementary material have to do with it? What do the comics or books show of Leliana?

Or you're merely derailing her character development because a crazy paranoid French lady tried to pull a cliche Not So Different speech. Shut Up, Hannibal! I say. As you can tell Leliana, "Evil does not worry about being good" The fact she's so concerned about being a bad person does her credit and shows she isn't who she uded to be.

edited 30th Jul '16 6:09:42 PM by Nikkolas

If Leliana were a sociopath she wouldn't stress over how pragmatic and ruthless she needs to be. Seems her detractors either miss or ignore that little detail.

Fair. I guess it's just the sequels.

Leliana as a Bard under Marjolaine and Leliana as the Left Hand actually seem slightly different— both Hardened, but not in exactly the same way. This is most noticeable at the Winter Palace, where she actually seems to be having *fun*.

It wasn't derailing her character development, it was telling her that she was lying to herself, which was made clear at other points. Hardened Leliana isn't even a bad person, she's just going to continue doing what she was already doing without beating herself up over it because she's trying to pretend she's a good nun.

So all throughout the entire game where she encourages you to help people and to not hurt people, or when she tries to kill you for defiling the Ashes - all just her lying to herself?

You asked why people would harden Leliana and I told you. It sounds kind of like you're attacking me for that or am I reading too much into your post?

Anyway, no, she's lying to herself when she says that she found the life in the Chantry fulfilling and peaceful. She thinks it's boring and doesn't like a lot of the other Sisters. She really is a kind, honest and good woman, she just happens to find the life of a bard more exciting. Why deny that part of her? It doesn't mean she's going to go around stabbing orphans and feasting on the blood of her enemies.

A conversation between her and Wynn reveals that a lot of it as well is that the chantry as well as hypocracy and racism they did not do good for the sake of being good, it was a game. A contest of one upmanship where they basically flogged themselves for The Maker's attention. It would be fair to say that Leliana did not need religion to be a good person, in fact as bad a place as she is in during Inquisition unhardened and being led to believe in Jerkass Gods is not a bad place at all.

As for hardened Leliana or Inquisition Leliana being bad, here's a few comparisons.

Unhardened = Vash the Stampede Hardened = Rei Ayanami (Rebuild version) Inquisition = Motoko Kusanagi

or

Unhardened = Superman...no Nightwing, whoever is more moral Hardened = Spiderman Inquisition = X23

or

Unhardened = Luke Skywalker Hardened = Jack Sparrow Inquisition = Sarah Connor

Bard!Leliana? Is there anyone quite like her?

NERRRRRRRRRRRRRD

Yes...um, so we discussing the series here?

[u No, I don't mean to come off like I'm attacking you. I agree with what you said there, more or less. I don't think Leliana enjoyed life in The Chantry so much. I think she enjoyed finding The Maker and spiritual peace but life in a cloister was never for her. She obviously dislikes a lot of the people who run The Chantry and her own ideas are very...unorthodox.

But I looked it up on the DA Wiki and literally the only way to harden Leliana is to, when she confesses to you that she liked killing and that she feels herself slipping back into the old Bard mindset, you have to encourage this. She says she enjoyed murdering someone and you're like "sure! Be that person again!" Instead of allaying her fears about being evil and returning to a person she didn't want to be anymore, you push her towards being that person once again.

I don't get it.

edited 30th Jul '16 8:14:31 PM by Nikkolas

That's not how I see it. I see it as not beating herself up for who she is. Her faith is important to her even if she can't follow the Chantry dogma too closely, but there's more than one way to express that part of herself.

Iirc you can say 'Murder is fun have at it' or something similar but you can also take an approach more like 'This is who you are, you don't need to hate yourself for it.'

edited 30th Jul '16 8:18:09 PM by Arha

But leaving her unhardened also involves her reaffirming and strengthening her faith in the Maker, something that's clearly important to her after Dorothea/Justinia helped her escape. Your answer to her in this is something along the lines of "Marjolaine chose who she became, and so can you." It's not a matter of her deluding herself that she's living this new life to hide from her past.

Well, that's fine if you want to take that approach. He was asking why anyone would not do that.

Indeed, and you gave an answer that does make sense. I just never thought of it that way. Thank you.

I've never hardened Leliana myself; Alistair I've hardened, though not in my primary playthrough. I like it better that the primary reason she got hardened by Inquisition in the first place was because of the death of one of the most important figures in her life, in the temple that basically confirmed the Maker's existence, during an event that was basically supposed to end the Mage-Templar War.

It sounds like she was hardened before that anyway. I mean, she was the ladypope's personal assassin.

Hmm seems to be that murder is appropriate if it means stopping the threat, but because of what happened and how drastic times are Leliana would call for drastic measures. If someone said she would suggest threatening to assassinate The Inquisitor's family before the chantry explosion I would be very skeptical.

She comes across as pretty Hardened when you meet her in DA 2, six years after the Blight ended, though not quite as cold as after Justinia's death.

True, but the death of Justinia in the Temple basically turned her faith sour, and it feels like if you don't soften her and then make her Divine, it doesn't even feels like she believes in the Maker anymore.

That's true, actually; part of the reason she's so hardened is because Justinia was basically using her as Marjolaine had, though the Divine had the added bonus of being guilty over it.

edited 30th Jul '16 9:10:11 PM by ITNW1989

Does the Maker care more for actions or results? Canonically (quite literally) neither, given his absence. So given the power she wields— and the only thing that really stops her from being the most influential and thus powerful single person in the Inquisition is her dedication to that organization, its principles, and by extension you— is it better for her to uphold the tenets of her faith for the sake of her own conscience and the ideal of what the Chantry should be, or to use all the powers at her command to actually make the world better at a swoop?

Now I'm sure we all know what Alistair would say, but what if she were actually successful? We know from the epilogue that it would be bloody, but bloodsoaked intrigue is nothing new in Orlais, and this at least is in service of a genuinely noble purpose.

Of course, given that that's one line of the epilogue, who knows how that goes.

If you watched that show, then Bard!Leliana reminds me of Fiona from Burn Notice, except that Michael's the one with comparable angst.

Example: Sera. Embrace your inner Sera.