Dragon Age

Honestly, when it came to the arishok, I chose to save Isabella and not hand her over. One, because I romanced her and I didn't want to hurt her and because I don't think anyone should be subjected to what the qunari do to people who cross them.

When it comes to the qun, I find some parts fascinating and some parts pretty fucked up. The parts I find fucked up include the fact that no one can ever change their position in life and that mages are treated like animals.

edited 5th Jul '16 12:33:26 PM by pointless233

Well, yes, exactly; apart from handing over Isabela, I would largely agree with all that. He did make the wrong call, and the game's writing is good enough that I can sympathize with him right up until he makes that call. And you're right, Petrice is something far worse. But that still doesn't justify the Arishok's actions, and the requirements of Qunari society seem to keep creating this kind of insoluble dilemma.

The whole siege is pretty much a death or glory gambit for the Arishok. Either he converts an entire city to the Qun, or he dies in battle. Because of his position, he can't allow himself to simply fail and give up. Instead, he must die in a great attempt, samurai-style. It makes him compelling, and I can still feel for the guy, but that doesn't mean I agree with him. It's the nature of being raised by the Qun: Treat people like machines and they'll act like machines— they'll run into walls and break. But people, living things, heal and adapt. I think that's more valuable in the long term, as a survival trait, and even the Qunari recognize this, as it seems to be the function of their priest caste.

I guess we'll learn more when the next game comes out. Mages versus Templars, that's old news. Now, it's time for elves against oxmen! Who will win?

edited 5th Jul '16 1:32:09 PM by Unsung

Well, the elves have Solas on their side. That's kind of unfair. Solas OP plz nerf.

But I thought it was gonna be Tevinter vs. Qunari. I'm sure elves will play a part in this but the actual conflict will be the Imperium or the Qunari.

edited 5th Jul '16 1:03:51 PM by Nikkolas

Yeah, elves and Qunari and magisters, sure, sure.

The game may take place in Tevinter, but just based on the way Trespasser left things, it seemed like Solas and the Qunari's mutual infiltration of the Inquisition might be a lead-in to the main plot of the next game, the way Legacy was for DAI. They've been teasing the next Qunari invasion since Sten in the first game, and Tevinter's as close to Par Vollen as we've ever been. That and Solas was always vehement in his disdain for the Qunari in a way he usually wasn't. I just get the feeling that Tevinter will be more of a neutral party with some sort of Evil vs. Evil (except neither side is exactly evil) plot going on. I could be wrong, though.

edited 5th Jul '16 1:22:24 PM by Unsung

I'm sure the Magisters will play a prominent role. Whether it will be one to the same extent as Solas and the Qunari, that remains to be seen.

Oh, I'm sure they will— I'm just not sure it'll be as primary villains or as more of a battleground. Keeping in mind we just had an ancient magister as a Big Bad, I was just thinking they might try and subvert the expectation of When In Fantasy Rome...do blood magic as the Fantasy Romans do. Dorian's whole presence is to let us know that the country isn't all bad, which you'd be forgiven for not realizing up to that point.

edited 5th Jul '16 1:31:45 PM by Unsung

Well if the central conflict will indeed be Qunari vs. Solas, I maintain my prediction that the Qunari's ultimate plan will be to completely shut off the Fade from the normal world. It's both the opposite of what Solas wants and it also completely fits with their philosophy.

I know there is apparently a thing about this killing everyone but I'm sure that can be retconned or worked around via whatever method the qunari use to seal off the Fade.

I also admit I totally ripped this idea off from Warhammer 40,000. The Necrons kinda made me think of the qunari insofar as they are the "technological race in a fantasy setting" race.

edited 5th Jul '16 1:38:39 PM by Nikkolas

I think you're onto something there: the Qunari want to cut off the Fade from the world or even destroy it, Solas wants to break down the Veil that he himself created. Meanwhile, the magisters are stuck in the middle— but have the understanding to be wary of the consequences for either course of action.

Yeah, you're not the only one cribbing ideas from Warhammer. The Fade is basically the Warp, and the Rite of Annulment is just a slightly milder version of Exterminatus. There are lots of other parallels, too. I don't really have a problem with that, any more than I do with Starcraft. They've gone in interesting new directions with it.

edited 5th Jul '16 1:53:32 PM by Unsung

About the Qunari - as I've said before, I understand the appeal. The problem is that they conquer regions by force, torture those who want to leave/reject their assigned roles into compliance, and treat mages like animals. I don't care if other societies, even in the real world, do similar things - that does not make them right. You can't just passively accept the wrongs of society - you need to work to make them better.

I don't hate people who practice the Qun - I hate the people who would force it on the populace, and preach its righteousness when there's so much wrong with it. In other words, pretty much what I hate about religious extremists in the real world (with the nearest example for me, as an American, being Christian fundamentalists).

Food for thought: was it really the wrong call?

I mean, morally wrong, absolutely. He kicked off an invasion that resulted in the deaths of countless innocent people for the purpose of spreading a tyrannical doctrine. The only part that was morally commendable is the inciting incident: his refusal to hand over the elves to be put to the sword in order to reinforce an ethnically disproportionate form of "justice".

But what alternative did he have?

He could not return to Par Vollen without recovering the tome. For better or worse, he and his crew were effectively exiled in hostile, foreign land for three years. During those three years, his people were under constant assault. They had thieves breaking into their compound, their people were being abducted and murdered, and they still had to complete their mission to recover the tome under this hailstorm of hostility.

Result: Their efforts to recover the tome so they can do exactly what everyone wants and GTFO of Kirkwall are undermined by the fact that any Qunari they send to try and complete the task is guaranteed to face constant hostility and pressure from the Chantry and the nobility diminishing their chances of success, if they aren't outright murdered for no reason.

They could always work more directly with the Kirkwall government and city guard, but the problem is that Kirkwall is an independent city-state. It has no jurisdiction beyond the borders of the city. The Free Marches might as well be a haven for crime due to their lack of centralized authority. There is a real concern to be had that if the thief catches wind of the fact that the Qunari are on to them, they'll slip away with the tome.

If the tome leaves Kirkwall, they will never find it and they can never go home. After three years with no results beyond the frequent crimes committed against the Qunari, this may already be the case.

And while it's certainly an extreme method to go about it, what alternative did he truly have? Stay the course and condone further offenses at the hands of Kirkwallers? It's telling that the Arishok only put this plan into action in response to, not the murders or the thefts, but having the city guard standing in his compound with the audacity to claim that he and his are the problem here, not them, and demanding he turn over members of his people to an unjust fate.

The last straw for the Arishok was recognizing that even Kirkwall's justice system was aligned against them. From his perspective, the entire city was a reprehensible behemoth that spent the last three years making unprovoked assaults at him and his from every possible direction.

Thus, the invasion, which wasn't so much a judgment call as it was a calculated decision. By launching his invasion, the Arishok guarantees one of three outcomes:

• Kirkwall is brought to heel, thief included. With the ability to turn the city upside-down without interference from Kirkwallers, the tome and its thief are rooted out. The Arishok's mission is complete. He and his men may return to Par Vollen.
• Kirkwall is brought to heel, but the tome is long gone. Still, the Qunari now have a base of operations to expand their search from and may be able to uncover clues as to where it has gone. Most importantly, they no longer need to put up with the oppression from the Kirkwallers and can turn their full attentions to finding the tome.
• Kirkwall succeeds in repelling the invasion. The Arishok is killed in action. He dies a noble death in service to the Qun. Additionally, with the weight of his duty now lifted, his men can return home to Par Vollen. The tome is lost forever, but duty has been served and his men returned all the same.

The invasion may be morally reprehensible, but there is no failure condition present for the Arishok. For a devout man who proudly serves both his people and his duty, no matter how the invasion ends, he still fulfills his goal.

With all this in mind, can it truly be said to have been "the wrong call"?

Good points and well made. I can certainly see the Arishok taking those considerations into account. He's interesting because he is clearly not mad, and never acts out of simple malice. Everything he does is rational. Which tells you just how angry he must be when he does get up off his chair and start yelling.

I'd still say it was the wrong call.

Wrong in the sense that it wouldn't get him what he wanted (although it kind of did, but that was a huge coincidence and wouldn't have happened if he'd succeeded in having Hawke killed), was against his orders, and was even something that he himself thought was a bad and possibly immoral idea, given all the time you spend arguing back and forth with him on the issue. He wants to be convinced. He wants to convince himself.

Recovering the Tome of Koslun is specifically the Arishok's duty in this case, no one else's. His men's duty is to obey his orders, but if he's dead, then they can (and indeed, it seems, must) return to Par Vollen. The problem, then, is that he cannot simply kill himself or sacrifice himself or even just deliberately make some mistake that gets him killed, because to do so would also be abandoning his duty. He is unwilling to do the latter, not, I think, out of pride, but rather because it would reflect poorly on the Qun. He's one of the triumvirate. If not even they can hold true to their principles, what does that say?

The situation is impossible because the only choices he can make are mutually contradictory, because he can't allow himself to fail in the short term to succeed in the long term— give a little, get a lot. It's a problem with how the Qunari are in general, the soldier/worker caste especially. Really, this is a job for the Ben-Hassrath, but because the Tome went missing on the Arishok's watch, he takes personal responsibility, and he's a square peg in a round hole.

It might have been the only call left for him to make (or perhaps just the only call he was still capable of making given his state of mind), but even out of choices that were all bad, I think this was probably just about the worst, in terms of its results.

edited 5th Jul '16 3:42:51 PM by Unsung

IIRC, Ari never bothered to even explain to anyone just what they were doing for the last three years. Had that happened, things might have ended better for all involved. Might have enjoyed a few willing converts that weren't killed in churches.

He never did tell anyone except Hawke (and even then that was grudgingly during a huge rant) about why exactly they were there but I don't get the impression that was entirely his choice. Qunari can be very secretive and given that it was HIS task and his ALONE that demanded he retrieve the Tome, he might very well have interpreted that as meaning he couldn't very well ask the Viscount or whoever for aid.

Or, hell, maybe he was just paranoid that if he asked for help, the other finder would take i tand run with it .Sell it to Tevinter or something.

The cancelled third DLC between Mark and Exalted March was said to have tied up the Varic Carta and Coterie thing, Presumably, this DLC would have introduced Bianca and the 'Lyrium is alive' plot twists which were then relegated to sidequests in Inquisition. Always got the impression that sidequests had ALOT stripped out of it.

Probably because I also always felt like Varic's character didn't go much anywhere in Inquisition. I love the guy, but he doesn't get much character development unless Hawke dies and even then...

Anyway, back to Isabella... You know, I never understood why Isabella just didn't, Y'know, let the tome go?

I kept getting the impression that it was being played up as some 'If they get the Tome first, they'll kill Isabella'. But, come to think of it, how would they know where she is if they do? She's seemed to survive fine in the city so far during 2 and the Quinari would probably blame whomever they caught with the book.

Qunari get the book and kill the rival that has it, Isabella lays low and avoids the Qunari while they take off to complete their quest. Boom, problem solved. Less character growth but seems fairly logical to me.

She doesn't like living in Kirkwall. She wants to be a captain again. She wants the Tome back, not to save her from the qunari, but to square her relationship with her old boss so she can return to what she loves - big boats.

What he said. She's not worried that the Qunari will kill her, but much more so about her old boss Castillon. Y'know, that guy whose slaves she set free? The Tome is her last chance to pay him back.

Easy to forget or miss (there's a lot happening in the brief time in which we find all this out), but Isabela didn't actually *have* the book for most of DA 2. She was actually searching for it in and around Kirkwall. For years. It's her 'treasure' that she keeps dragging Hawke along after false leads.

Oh, what I wouldn't give for that cancelled DLC... As far as DLC goes, Legacy and Mark of the Assassin are probably the best DLC Bioware's ever done, up there with ME 3: Citadel.

edited 5th Jul '16 6:22:42 PM by Unsung

Legacy's up there, at least in comparison to the regular and unmodded Dragon Age ][ game. Mark of the Assassin? Respectfully disagree.

I enjoyed Mot A a lot but its a big YMMV thing. Then again, so was EVERYTHING to do with that game.

Still, things have improved. When I first came to this thread, years before I started the series, I heard nothing but complete hate for the game. And that isn't even getting into its treatment on other board. Glad this has mostly died down and a fair number of people actually admit to really liking the game nowadays.

I'm also really happy Gaider never tried to sweep the game under a rug or something. Last interview I heard from him he talked about being very proud of it, if annoyed at how it was rushed.

Oh, I knew Isabella didn't have the tome and was looking for it. I just thought it was out of selfish desire rather than paying off someone. I forgot about coslun.

I never liked DA 2, but I liked the DLC far better. My major gripe that keeps me from replaying it a lot is that I couldn't stand a lot of the characters. And I don't mean that out of 'I hated the characters' but I felt they could be a bit... Intrusive and agressive and constantly fighting with each other. Half of them hate each other so much that I don't understand why they haven't killed each other. I always get the response of 'Because their friendship with Hawke', but I don't understand why they then value our "friendship" to such a degree in the first place.

In Origins, the companion behavior could be 'I don't like you and you annoy me' but it never exactly got to 'Your very presence insults me and I'm going to insult you to the point you stab me'..

The rushed stuff also gets me. It's very clear what was rushed and this game honestly needed a lot more to truly flesh out the setting. It's upsetting that I know and understand more about Orlais and Fereldan: entire countires, while I feel at a severe disadvantage with Kirkwall.

Well, if you don't like DA 2, I can respect that. Personally, I liked the game, and while it does have it's flaws, it also has some improvements compared to Origins.

About the only things I'd say ][ improved on was the tactics slots. Not only in the number of slots, but the complexity of them. Another improvement was the Friendship/Rivalry system, but only because they'd stay at maximum Friendship/Rivalry after maxing out one end of the spectrum. I'm not one of those people that disliked Origins' gift spam.

Other than that I found ][ far less enjoyable on its own compared to Origins. Literally the only way I can play it now is if I save edit the hell out of the game to do impossible things like giving all the specializations to matching party members and adding in weapons like the cut Vigilance greatsword.

I liked being able to actually disagree with party members without being punished for it. Don't make me support Anders terrible decisions, please.

Though honestly going for rivalry with Anders feels more like just being a dick a lot of the time whereas with Fenris it sounds more like you're being rational even though I actually agree with him more.

edited 5th Jul '16 10:30:37 PM by Arha

Agreed. The Rivalry vs Friendship system needed refinement as to what that actually mean. And the writing really needed to reflect HOW you actually built rivalry with him I remember playing DA 2 for the first time and I called out Anders on being a dick a lot (because I was hoping he'd be more Awakening!Anders and he wasn't, but that's another thing).

When I eventually had my rival conversation with him, he was aghast. He was horrified and confused as to why an Apostate Mage like my Hawke would be ok with being chained like a slave by the Chantry. All of my dialogue options kind of reflected this idea that my Hawke believed in Andraste and etc.

And I was horribly confused as to why all my dialogue said this. Or why Anders believed that I felt this way. I'd gained rivalry with him through calling him out on being a dick, NOT through disagreeing with the mages' issues. Basically, the majority of the things to build rivalry with Anders had the pretense of 'Mages should be locked up for their own good' but not all of them. I hit a lot of the ones that didn't have this pretense to them, but the devs didn't account for that in the writing. Thus my Hawke looked out of character.

Its moments like that which broke my immersion and really hindered my ability to get into the story. Things felt very black and white in that you could agree or disagree with companions, but the reasons why were narrowed down to a single train of logic as to why you'd disagree with them and not examine others as to why I might not like Anders.

My other big gripe relates to that. Its easy to get locked out of character development in DA 2 compared to Inquisition or Origins. If you don't meet certain thresholds for Companion Rivalry or Friendship, then you can miss quests or romance and they might end up disappearing during a time skip. It seems logical how that would work on paper, but didn't work in execution. I disagreed with some companions for reasons the game didn't expect, which resulted in my rivalry and friendship points to end up evening out or not meeting certain thresholds.

It got to a point where I started trying to make a chart of exactly what companions to take on what quests to get the point values to round out so I could romance them or see their Act 3 quest and... That's not how I should be playing this game. I shouldn't have to make elaborate charts of what quests will net desired values for certain companions and what quests will make two companions fight like children so I can avoid bringing them. It just wasn't fun. I was having to be strategic with my party choices for the wrong reasons instead of taking characters I genuinely liked and wanted to take with me or because they senergized well with my party.

Also I had major gripes with Anders in Act 3 but I don't know if we want to go there.

I understand why people like DA 2, but I just can't get invested in it. I feel like the game fights me a lot and I end up feeling pretty distanced and uninvolved in the experience.

Personally, I really dislike the Qunari. I acknowledge that, in the end, they're just another society that has found a different balance than the others, less free but more stable.

But I really, really can't stand how much they seem to believe their own bullshit. I mean, sure, people like their kings and churches and whatever, but most of them seem to be aware on some level that it's all a big act needed to keep things stable. They bow before the king, but they make crass jokes about him when he's not there.

On the other hand, there's something in the way most Qunari you meet talk about just how perfectly right their way is... it makes every creepy-Scientology-cult-alarm-bell ring in my head.

edited 6th Jul '16 12:43:21 AM by Cozzer

That's the main thing about them that unnerves me as well. I loathe those tendencies.

edited 6th Jul '16 12:37:13 AM by joergenjetsam