I'm still blown away by the fact that someone was complaining about an amalgamation of pixels identifying as transgender. What does it matter if the pixels have the "correct" cluster of pixels between their legs, which by the way, are made out of fucking pixels.
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Even by Origins, there was clearly evidence of Thedas being much more egalitarian in the realm of gender and sexuality in comparison to the real world, even compared to today in some respects.
I think calling Krem that is a little reductive - we're talking about the writing here.
edited 4th Dec '15 5:19:22 PM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!
Right, so it's weird to be that people are complaining about Dragon Age not being a Medieval Sim NOW.
That's the beautiful thing about fantasy. You are allowed to create a decent circumstance for traditionally oppressed minorities and show that the world can still be a shithole.
I'm talking grand scheme man. If a fictional character really bothers someone enough that they want to tell them off, then I think there's an issue.
And honestly, I don't think it's all that reductive... Krem isn't exactly well-developed, despite him getting a 3-second-throw-away romance arc.
edited 4th Dec '15 5:26:10 PM by sarcastibot
Frankly, I've never seen Origins as Dark Fantasy. Oh sure the marketing played it up as such, but really it never felt anything less than High Fantasy to me. The sequel was Low Fantasy to me, and Inquisition returned to being High Fantasy to me.
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
Well, it depends on what said character did. If the character, for example, killed a bunch of defenseless people, I think you'd be justified in wanting to call them out on it. Nothing really like that in this case though.
I think Krem's got a fair share of development. He's given a backstory and a friendship with Bull, which I think amounts to something, at least.
edited 4th Dec '15 5:30:17 PM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!
Would that it were so simple.
Medieval Fantasy without backward social mores in the setting is infantile. You don't become egalitarian in a society with aristocratic power, absolute monarchy, and religious militancy. People want their knights and their lords in castles without the burning villages, the bloodthirsty lords, the asshole church, the struggle between the manors and the commons, and the lack of strong, central authority.
DAO definitely had the potential for that, but then David Gaider wanted half the character dialogue to be about romances and SJW bullshit, and we ended up with a series tailor-made for the infuriating Tumblr crowd.
edited 4th Dec '15 5:35:32 PM by CrimsonZephyr
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Is a Medieval Simulator, which Dragon Age has never been.
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
We have plenty of that in Dragon Age. We just don't need misogyny, homophobia and transphobia on top of it.
Could it be that Dragon Age is about the dismantling of such power structures? It's worth considering, I think.
edited 4th Dec '15 5:37:03 PM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!
Would that it were so simple.
Why not? What makes homophobia, misogyny, and transphobia off-limits bigotries in a series that tackles racism, economic oppression, social oppression, political oppression, the corruption of the aristocracy and the commons in equal measure? We ought to have all manner of it.
Dorian's personal quest would have been more meaningful and more three-dimensional if it were clear he was actually endangering his family's future, for example. And in real life, a gay heir is disastrous. They end up not having children, and the family's power goes to a distant cousin, is fought over, or vanishes entirely. Instead, we had the gay writer lecture us about how being against homosexuality is bad. I agree: it is bad, but life, especially life with stifling responsibilities that come with privilege, is rarely black and white.
edited 4th Dec '15 5:40:04 PM by CrimsonZephyr
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
Because quite frankly they're old hat and people are sick of them?
Zephyr, what new, exciting things do you think could be done with misogyny and homophobia in Dragon Age?
Oh God! Natural light!
Nothing.
It's just these same people express a desire to have the PC express these same bigotries with their M Cs. THAT I have a problem with
edited 4th Dec '15 5:39:57 PM by VeryMelon
I think that Bio Ware knows that a portion of their audience actually has to put up with homophobia and transphobia on a regular basis in their real lives. They don't need the option when they go to unwind on the couch.
Would that it were so simple.
They're old hat because they're a fact of life, and you can't just rip them out of a setting where they are integral without it seeming anachronistic. If you want a setting with modern values, why not make the society in the setting modern?
Those people can kindly fuck off, immediately. They're the cancer that's killing storytelling, in general. Drama should make you feel uncomfortable.
edited 4th Dec '15 5:43:43 PM by CrimsonZephyr
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Also, DA is not the real world. Even if it was more faithful, it's still on a different planet with different history. Our world developed into the misogynistic mess it was because of the Greeks and Romans laid the foundation for much of our history.
It does not appear there was anything similar in DA so their culture did not adopt that particular prejudice.
Drama can come from things other than the same discriminations people face in real life.
Homophobia makes me uncomfortable to read about in anything but non-fiction. Because I am gay and because I have gone through most of the regular homophobic tropes, reading fictional characters be homophobic on my spare time is really difficult for me.
edited 4th Dec '15 5:49:55 PM by sarcastibot
AND we don't need to give the Player Character the ability to be a bigot towards real life minorities.
Would that it were so simple.
Inherited power, no matter what society it originates from, has a reductionist effect on the value of people, who become a Glorified Sperm Donor or a broodmare depending on whether the society is matriarchal or patriarchal. If you have kings and queens, with actual power, it's part and parcel.
Again, why not? You can be a bigot, so long as it doesn't make anyone truly uncomfortable? Come on. If you're going to make your character a bigoted asshole, go whole-hog. Don't create an ersatz discrimination so that black and white can equally gang up on green. Or, at least, don't do only that.
edited 4th Dec '15 5:49:01 PM by CrimsonZephyr
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
x6 "Historical accuracy" doesn't make much sense in a world that is explicitly not historical Earth. Arguing that they are anachronistic is nonsensical if it's set in the real world.
It's not set in a more modern setting because they preferred the medieval aesthetic. Why are they required, in your eyes, to use those sorts of things to create drama? What would be gained from that?
edited 4th Dec '15 5:49:16 PM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!
Your argument is that a monarchy ruled by a king or queen inevitably tramples the rights of the opposite sex?
That is a viewpoint I've never heard before.
edited 4th Dec '15 5:49:56 PM by Nikkolas
Partly because it's a rather insane suggestion in general given Bioware's massive LGBT Fanbase, partly because giving bigots a platform to be right in any context is extremely gross.
The fact that there are dragons and elves throwing lightning out of their chest isn't anachronistic, but the lack of homophobia is. Okay.
Would that it were so simple.
Inherited power in general. Lords, knights, kings, queens. Any system where property ownership, inheritance, and political power are part of the same conceptual entity, you're not going to looking out for the individual happiness of the members so much as the integrity of the unit. And as for gender equality; does it really matter if your wife thinks you're ugly, and you're twenty years older? You have an heir and a spare to make!
In a bigoted society, bigots prosper. Having the Gay Police make sure that, in every mention of homosexuality in a society where nobility needs heirs, means we get a lecture about how homophobia is bad, mmkay, is trite. They don't have to be "right," but there should be consequences to being forward-thinking ahead of your time.
"medieval aesthetic"
This term is cancer. If you can't handle the gritty, unpleasant parts of "medieval," don't make it a medieval setting.
edited 4th Dec '15 5:56:50 PM by CrimsonZephyr
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
I think Inquisition in general was the cause of this complaint surge.