Dragon Age

Nikkolas - I really like you because of how different you are from me. Dogma is anathema to me in nearly all its forms, and the Qun is perhaps the most dogmatic of dogma in the setting. My question is, if the Qun is so perfect, then why do its adherents try to murder those that leave it? Why can't they acknowledge that some beings are imperfect and cannot handle the strictures of their "perfect" society.

Well I guess it's best to say this now as it's not really a spoiler. There is very little of the Ways of the Qun spelled out Inquisition. But as you are probably aware, some religions in real life have a belief that it is their duty to converts, or proselytize, the unenlightened. The Qun is sort of a weird mix of philosophy and religion....not helped by the fact defining "religion" isn't easy in any case. But whatever the matter, the Qun demands that all be subjected to it. Just like The Chant does, funnily enough.

But as to the "Why" the Qunari seek to forcefully convert both the baas and why they want to kill the Tal-Vashoth, I guess it's best to think of them as Super OCD. All the square pegs have to go in square holes. A square peg can NEVER go in a round hole or be a round peg. To even attempt to do such is wrong and defies the square peg's nature.

The Qunari see any act in defiance of your role as heresy because it disturbs the perfect order they wish to create; the harmony they seek to bestow on all of Thedas. You can't let such disunity and chaos spread. It's like any other disease, you stamp it out as quick as possible. This also applies to how they view the Tal-Vashoth. They think of their wayward brethren as sick since they are rejecting what is absolutely right and cannot be refused by anyone of sound mind.

Whether they are right or wrong is irrelevant. I'm just trying to put into words their beliefs.

Sten in Origins and the Arishok in 2 explain it better than me. Also Tallis, should you get the Mark of the Assassin DLC for 2.

edited 25th Nov '15 4:36:35 PM by Nikkolas

But that's not how people work. We aren't pegs, we're water. We change our shape to fit the container that we're in. Iron Bull is a great example of that thought to me. He is adaptable, willing to change with the circumstance, and he couldn't handle being thought of as a peg.

Any religion that tries to kill those that leave it is evil in my estimation. And I say that with 100% confidence.

edited 25th Nov '15 4:41:22 PM by sarcastibot

Yeah, I've always said that my only problem with the Qun is that they plan to conquer all of Thedas to forcefully convert everyone. If that can't be changed, I'd welcome the chance to destroy the Qun.

I rather like the Qun, actually. If it was just open to even gradual change I probably wouldn't have any problems with it since I figure the saarebas and gender issues would get wrinkled out over time as they realized how inefficient and pointless such practices are. But alas, there need to be obvious flaws with the system so we can dislike it.

The Qunari are just Dirty Commies.

The Qun reminds me of the Borg. If the Borg were a philosphy and not a hive mind plague.

When I first got into Dragon Age someone described the Qunari as Islamic Borg. I think the Islamic part comes from their social/political/military place in the world, rather than their ideas, though.

The Qunari have Arab-esque names, largely fill the role of Ottoman Empire, and have a belief system that largely derives from Confucianism.

How does a Chinese/East Asian philosophy/religion fit with the rest of that and justify the Islamic Borg idea? Or were you just describing their IRL inspirations?

IRL I believe. I mean, everything on that post is about IRL things.

edited 25th Nov '15 11:33:07 PM by joergenjetsam

I think the Qun are really fascinating certainly more interesting than the Chantry so I'm glad they're a part of the setting. But I just can't really agree with them. I'd love to see more of them in future installments but there's no way I'd ever take their side on... pretty much anything.

That being said I hope the games don't ever allow us to "fix all the problems" with the Qun by making it conform to our vision of right and wrong. It's bizarre morality is part of why it's so interesting.

"Any religion that tries to kill those that leave it is evil in my estimation. And I say that with 100% confidence."

Keep in mind when DA roughly takes place. Women have a lot more freedom than they did historically but it's still a largely feudal or medieval world. They had very different values than us back then.

Recently I learned a lot about the Protestant Reformation in Christianity and it's fascinating. Both sides did some verynasty things to our modern sensibilities. But if you look at it from the perspective of a true believer, they were doing a kindness. Burnings and executions were a kindness because life is short, eternity is not. Better they save your soul by destroying your body as quick as possible.

The Chantry, being the typical fantasy stand-in for the Roman Catholic Church, although being nowhere near as interesting or good, has roughly this same idea. Leliana explains in the first game, and it's spelled out in the Chant of Light, that The Maker will only return to bless us all once all the peoples of Thedas have turned away from their false gods or idols. So naturally the Chantry went on and tried to kill everyone who didn't believe. "They are fucking it up for the rest of us" essentially.

I just find it fascinating, honestly. Of course, the Qun has no afterlife so far as I know so this 'justification" doesn't work with their determination to convert the world. But it's just something to think about.

edited 26th Nov '15 10:49:30 AM by Nikkolas

Nik no one said The Chantry didn't have issues. Hell sarcastibot said he didn't like The Chantry.

I know that's what they said. I'm not condemning The Chantry. Just pointing out what I think are Deliberate Values Dissonance.

edited 26th Nov '15 11:15:00 AM by Nikkolas

Any religion that doesn't allow cookies is evil in my eye. And the whole brainwashing re-education thing is problematic.

They allow cookies. Sten is bringing their greatness back to Par Vollen. Now that he is Arishok, the Qunari consider cookies to be a dietary staple.

Tragically it turns out high levels of sugar do not match well with dragon blood. The Qunari are ultimately undone by Diabetes.

Oh, thought part of Sten's re-education was that he was enjoying cookies and that was a no-no.

I assume he was promoted to Arishok specifically because he discovered cookies. Why else would he get such a large promotion?

I like the way Bull explained the Qunari's relationship with Tal-Vashoth. What it boils down to is self-loathing. The Qunari are so heavily ingrained in their dogma that they actively fear the principle of not having it. I've met people of various faiths like this in real life - people who believe that if they did not have their faith to provide them with a system of morals and principles to obey, they would immediately devolve into raving, murderous psychopaths.

Bull holds this exact view of the Tal-Vashoth and it's a major motivating factor in his loyalty to the Qun: that Tal-Vashoth are effectively mindless beasts driven mad by their rejection of the Qun. That, in abandoning the Qun, they have abandoned their moral compass and any possible semblance of humanity (so to speak). That they are only capable of indulging in violent, brutal, horrific crimes because it's all they have left to their identity now.

Bull isn't really that faithful to the Qun, he just desperately wants to not become Tal-Vashoth because he fears it will cost him his identity, his sanity, and his ability to judge right and wrong. The same is likely true for many within the Qunari, which is why they feel it is their moral obligation to seek out and destroy any who leave it. This is but one of the many flaws in the Qunari's philosophical theocracy.

I get where they're coming from but I condemn them for it all the same, because their perspective does not justify their choices.

edited 27th Nov '15 3:03:53 PM by TobiasDrake

So... Trespasser was short.

I knew that there was more than meets the eye when it came to Solas, but I must admit that I was quite surprised by the way that turned out. Fen'Harel, who had been called a trickster god in the vein of Loki when I did some cursory research, turns out to be my humorless apostate hedge mage. Who would have thought? Certainly not me.

I must say, Trespasser brought this game from an 8.5 to a 9.5 for me. Everything tied in quite well, and it showed off some of the most unique mythology that I've ever read. Before the Veil was created the elven "gods" were really just normal, powerful elf mages who enslaved the rest of their kind. Corypheus was given the orb because Solas was not powerful enough to handle it himself yet. And it was all the sort of mistake that powerful men who believe that they can do no wrong make, to think that he can control other people who have their own ambition.

The complaint about Corypheus not being a compelling villain is now moot. Yes, I suppose the 100 hours of the initial game that propped him up as such should be judged on their own. But with Solas being the overall Big Bad of the game, suddenly many of the things that went on have been tied together so well that instead of waiting a while before my next play-through, I'm going to be starting from the beginning very soon so that I can try to recognize his true nature as it was foreshadowed.

I refused to disband the Inquisition, instead making them Leliana's personal bodyguard. This is not exactly how I wanted it to end, as I'd much rather prop up the Inquisition as a new country in and of itself, with democratic ideals. But this game is not about what I thought it was about. I thought that DA:I was interested in telling the story of how a new power carved out a name for itself. Instead it is a story about the ideals of great men becoming warped and damaging to the average people. After 100 hours of the game, I find myself curious about DA 4.

So, here's my idea of what's going to happen in the next installment of Dragon Age: -Your character will start as a new member of the Inquisition. -The elves that left to go follow Solas will start their own war against the world. -Solas will obviously be the Big Bad, and the final decision will be whether to allow him to remake the world or stop him.

I, for one, am looking forward to this intensely.

There's also the implication that the Qunari leaders aren't putting as much effort as they could to wiping out the Tal-Vashoth because they make for a useful boogeyman, keeping others from leaving the Qun.

Many people have theorized an ending like that, but I don't think so. It would make it impossible to continue the series in any way. My guess is that at the start or midway through the game, Solas' plan succeeds, and then you have to handle a new world without the Veil. At the end you'll get an option to punish him or join him or whatever.

I doubt that. I get the impression that DA 4 will be a lot about espionage and being a spy in Tevinter and interacting with contacts and ultimately being a messenger for/and extension of the Inquisitor's orders.

I think Solas' plan won't succeed. Or, at the very least, not in DA 4 since they've claimed they have a rough plan out to at least 5 games in the series. And Trespasser was pretty adamant on the idea that EVERYONE would die (instantly and painlessly based on the way Solas spoke) if the Veil fell, so I'm not sure how you'd survive that. Its not like DA has a Fallout Shelter from these kinds of events.

I didn't get the impression that everyone would instantly die. It's just that the sudden presence of countless demons, more magic than any mage knows what to do with in their wildest dreams, and a god trying to remake an ancient empire, would for all intents and purposes destroy everything anyone recognizes. There would be survivors besides Solas' army, and of course the PC would be one of them.