Ambiguous Name: Aint Too Proud To Beg

IK this thread isn't for Villains Want Mercy, but assuming I'd do a wick check for that, what would I be looking for?

That aside, suggestions so far have been Super-Trope/NOPE move, Super-Trope/creation of sub tropes, merging this trope with VWM (which is the one thing I'm against), and a Trope Transplant where we use this name for a Missing Supertrope and move heroic examples to a new trope. These probably aren't mutually exclusive but I'm curious as to which leaves the most room for ideas (and in that case, possible names).

We'd need to know how to define a supertrope before enacting such a proposal, and making pages for subtropes is usually a job for TLP, not TRS.

Implied description: "a hero unheroically asks for mercy verbally or non-verbally when they are about to get killed". A lot of examples would fit Villains Want Mercy instead or aren't life-threatening or begging. The name implies the pride is the focus.

Suggestions:

• Rename (Undiginfied Begging, Begging Heroes)
• Change the description to explicitly forbid villainous examples
• Change the description to allow non-lifethreatning begging
• Change the description to allow pathetically losing pride of an otherwise seemingly prideful character
• Change the description to allow characters who are already shown to have no pride and shamelessly use begging pragmatically

Anything not picked can go to TLP.

Further conversation can be made if there's a wick check for Villains Want Mercy. There's an argument that there's an overlap and the two can be merged to a broader trope, but I'm not sure what to look for aside checking what's the most common interpretation.

Personally, I've seen this trope being used as a generic 'begging' trope and have become SUPER hesitant to wick this trope anywhere out of fear of misuse, so I (at least) think there's a high chance of this being (or becoming) Chairs-y.

reposting from earlier, here are a list of potential interpretations that have been mentioned in this thread, based on a good faith reading of the current description

• The hero, specifically, begging the villian for mercy
• Undignified begging, in general
• limited to begging for mercy specifically
• limited to heroic characters
• limited to characters who are prideful or thought to be prideful (?) (sorry if i misunderstood this one)
• the opposite interpretation, that this applied to characters who don't suffer from pride
• the hero bows, kneels or begs to the villian

the question is, which, if any of those, is the current definition, and which, if any of those, would be a valid tropeworthy concept

part of the issue is that its currently difficult to even quantify how much misuse there is, because the definition isnt clear, and the initial wick check wasnt clear on what definition it used

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i think the other list mentioned above covers most of the same concepts

Edited by Tremmor19 on Mar 23rd 2024 at 2:18:12 PM

I kind of wonder if this should be sent to Trope Talk due to the disagreement over the definition.

Well, since that post there's also been discussion of "making a supertrope" (my idea, but I don't remember what definition I had in my head at the time), merging with Villains Want Mercy, or simply doing basic cleanup. Obviously though, the unclear the description is the bugbear keeping us from fully moving onto a solution.

I'd be alright taking it to Trope Talk; I'm assuming this thread will just be put on hold (the same way Broken Aesop's thread was) in that case?

Edited by Coachpill on Mar 25th 2024 at 6:35:29 AM

Bump

Sorry for the triple post, but is still an option? I just want to avoid the thread closing without some kind of resolution.

Edited by Coachpill on Mar 25th 2024 at 12:45:15 PM

We have crowner options for the definition, so not sure if it's big ebough of a roadblock.

I think these can be worked into a crowner, since they capture the more important definition bits we've gone through. Don't know how handling the soft split will go though

I think the one about begging for mercy is the strongest option here. We have Villains Want Mercy for this option, and don't want a Missing Supertrope, so I'd oppose any solution that limits the "begging for mercy" concept to heroes without a supertrope covering both.

I'd say create a Trope Talk and come back later once we understand what should be put in the crowner.

Edited by LaundryPizza03 on Mar 30th 2024 at 5:27:57 AM

If someone could make a Trope Talk thread, the thread can be closed. We could bring this thread back if a Trope Talk thread came to a conclusion regarding what to do (if anything).

The clock runs out soon and making a Trope Talk thread doesn't require this thread to be open, so I'll lock this (at least until/unless a Trope Talk thread sorts things out).