TRS Discussion: About Discussing Other Tropes on Threads

Right, that's why I'd originally suggested the content to be on Administrivia.Trope Repair Shop. I feel we could easily add a "thread etiquette" section.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I actually think Administrivia.TRS Guidelines is easier to spell out — and point to. Hence why I support that idea + a separate Administrivia.Trope Repair Shop page like Macron suggested.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on May 3rd 2023 at 4:06:18 AM

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

I think the TRS should be written out for clarity. But TRS Guidelines can redirect as an alt title.

That’s true. to a redirect then

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

Adding to the existing page and making a redirect sounds fine.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

So, what else would go in a "Thread etiquette" section?

Edited by WarJay77 on May 3rd 2023 at 7:52:28 AM

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Well, Trope Repair Shop has a general behavior section so maybe we can remake into an etiquette section. Besides the forum rules that apply to everyone and some of the items on the stuff that doesn't belong on TRS section, I don't have anything new to suggest for an etiquette section.

Macron's notes

I mean, we should probably make a note to not come into the thread just to complain about a change you don't like.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

That's already noted on the "Please do not make Trope Repair Shop threads for the following" which is why I said that some stuff on the "doesn't belong on TRS section" could be put in etiquette section but I wasn't clear about that. That's was the guideline I was thinking about though.

Edited by MacronNotes on May 3rd 2023 at 8:07:14 AM

Macron's notes

Oh, well it's a little different; that's about not making threads to complain while I'm talking about the people who appear midway through cleanup to complain.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I was thinking of just making general point on an etiquette section so that we don't have to mention the complaint point in two different places.

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I guess another etiquette thing is don't ask why TRS is doing something to x trope when y trope still exists as is but that probably just counts as complaining.

Macron's notes

to your second point, I included a discussion of that in the Potential TRS Policy Write Up draft

Eh, I'd much rather mention the complaint stuff in context of people protesting decisions, rather than for the threads. Complaint threads are much less common than they used to be and get shut down much more quickly if they do appear. But someone ranting about how we deleted a trope they like can quickly derail and become a heated war.

But if we only have to mention it once it can just be condensed into a general "don't show up just to complain" point with some elaboration on both versions.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 3rd 2023 at 9:09:43 AM

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

? I'm pretty sure I contextualized it in that way, i.e. when another thread is already going on, don't try to use the fact that Trope B exists to shut down convo on the trope the thread was opened for.

Again, I think we should be careful to not make it come off as if we're saying "never bring up another trope or an older decision during a thread", because there are times when doing so is appropriate. We've even discussed reverting some previous changes that we're deemed too hasty or too extreme in light of new TRS threads. We should just let people know when and how doing so is appropriate, since there's nuance to this.

Edited by amathieu13 on May 3rd 2023 at 9:28:12 AM

Oh, I was mostly responding to Macron and her point that because "complaining" was already mentioned under the TRS page for what sort of threads to not make, we shouldn't have an extra note about other kinds of TRS complaining. So I was continuing that specific conversation thread.

And yeah obviously we don't want to make people think that it's never okay, but in this instance that isn't actually related to what I was talking about. I'm just talking about the people who show up mid cleanup phrase to say that they hate the changes without offering a substantial argument, not about the whataboutisms.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 3rd 2023 at 9:28:25 AM

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

oh my b.

No prob it happens

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I didn't know the complaining was specifically about people complaining about TRS decisions after the fact. I think it's fine to have that as an "etiquette" thing along with complaining in general.

Now, I guess we just have to figure how to condense the Potential TRS Policy Write Up into Trope Repair Shop. I still say we can turn the "General Behavior" section into "General Etiquette" and then make a bulleted list. On an unrelated note, it might be good idea to use folders if we are adding more things into Trope Repair Shop.

Edited by MacronNotes on May 3rd 2023 at 9:59:55 AM

Macron's notes

Perhaps we could mention making threads to complain and making complaining posts in existing threads (usually starred threads) in the same paragraph. They're both related issues despite being separate ways complaining can manifest. (And as mentioned, posts complaining about decisions are more common and more problematic than complaining threads, since the latter tend to get Morgued quickly while the former can cause derails.)

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 3rd 2023 at 10:46:37 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

Was hoping to write and post this last night but didn't have enough brainpower to do so until now. I only barely skimmed the discussion on the second page before originally posting this so this is mostly referring to where the discussion was at the end of the first page, though I've tried to incorporate some responses to subsequent discussion.

The two comments directly after my last one referred to merging "renaming guidelines" with other elements of the page, which led me to take another look at Septimus' comment 18. As it stands, Trope Renaming Guidelines is close to what I was talking about in terms of providing guidance to how TRS actually works, though it includes a pair of lists of good arguments without mentioning any bad arguments, and it seems to be oriented more towards thread starters than thread participants. The Trope Repair Shop page provides more of a high-level overview for thread starters, going over the basic mechanics of starting a thread, while the Guidelines reflect the best arguments to make and some of the mechanics of how a thread works once it's started, such as how crowners work.

But while the Guidelines are closer, neither quite seems like the best place to make the main point War Jay wanted to make about not wasting the thread's time by bringing up other pages. That would be a place collecting bits of advice and other things that we want people coming into a thread, who may not be familiar with TRS culture, to know. (As mentioned the TRS page has a section on "general behavior", but it's mostly stuff about civility that's good advice no matter what, not anything TRS-specific.) Perhaps the Guidelines could be retooled to incorporate that sort of thing (even though so far the only other addition people have come up with is after-the-fact complaining); certainly as it stands it could use a trip through the Outdated Administrivia Pages thread to reflect, among other things, how usage checks are now mandatory for most types of threads to be opened at all, and maybe a rename to TRS Guidelines could come with that (especially as TRS hasn't been solely about renames for well over a decade).

The thread seems to have gravitated towards either merging some of the stuff on the Trope Repair Shop page with the Guidelines, and I suppose if that would bring it more in line with Image Pickin' and TLP Guidelines we might as well do that, just yanking the relevant sections out of the TRS page entirely (as much of the second page doesn't seem clear whether it acknowledges the existing Guidelines page's existence), or going back to merging the suggested additions to the existing TRS page. As it stands the thread's secondary purpose, about when a thread should be about multiple pages, feels like it could be incorporated into the existing Trope Repair Shop page without any further changes (and I was originally going to write a paragraph addressing that), but since the main purpose is kind of homeless and the thread seems to have gone in a different direction to give it one that could also affect the relevant part of the TRS page, probably best to just see how it plays out. I'll try to be back later tonight with more.

Edited by MorganWick on May 3rd 2023 at 9:37:09 AM