How strict is Obvious Beta's criteria?

Obvious Beta has the following disclaimer:

Edited by badtothebaritone on Nov 23rd 2022 at 12:32:07 PM

Imo broaden to include very unpolished/unfinished/buggy games. That's how people use it anyways, there's plenty of games on that list like FFVI, Oblivion, and Skyrim that are examples because of severe bugs or sheer number of them, not because either game can't be finished.

Edited by PhiSat on Nov 23rd 2022 at 12:52:25 PM

...this trope seems blurrier when it's fairly common for video games to be released as a public beta, sometimes for so long that the official publication is basically a formality.

Not to the point that it makes the page irrelevant, but it does feel less notable somehow.

Previously there was an Ask the Tropers thread about the matter. I'm just linking it for people to see what was mentioned before.

In the ATT query linked above, I also linked to an older discussion on the topic. One of the mods weighed in there, for those curious.

Here's how Fighteer defines the trope in the query:

Edited by badtothebaritone on Nov 24th 2022 at 11:32:57 AM

There will always be a few bugs in a game, you can't brush then all out, but it should be a combination of any of the below.

• Multiple and common ways to crash the game (ie hitting the menu button while jumping), such that many people can't play more than 20 minutes before having to restart.
• Buggy features and quest progression that don't work right, requiring official and unofficial workarounds.
• Absent or barebone features that lack what was advertised.
• Incongruent models or textures which are intended to be in the foreground.
• The need for constant updates that may break the game further before fixing anything.

Independently any one of those bullet points may not be an Obvious Beta, but several of them definitely are. The nature of modern games is multi platform with online content so having a variety of bugs is common, but should be clear from casual play and not those looking for it.

I swear this trope was YMMV a long time ago, so I looked at the discussion page, and I found a TRS thread from 2011 that voted to keep it as an objective trope. Of course, the wiki has changed a lot since then, so do you think we should give it another look? I added it to Tropes Needing TRS under "actually subjective" with this description:

A game being unfinished isn't an intentional creative decision, and it's been discussed that what counts as "unplayable" is subjective.

Edited by NitroIndigo on Nov 26th 2022 at 7:18:21 PM

That, and the term "obvious" means it depends upon the user's point. It's either entirely subjective or it has to be objective. Being subjective also means it has more possibilities for complaining, so maybe being objective is a good thing.

I also do like the disclaimer by design that was added, cause it makes the examples far more clear on criteria and tightens the trope so it's harder to misuse it. Right now any unfinished game is it, and that's not really a trope. That's just "beta" at best, not "Obvious" as a portion, which was the point behind it.

So I'm for heavily tightening the requirements both for the factor of removing complaining and making it easier to make very clear entries.

Though there's still no denying that the unplayable part is pretty subjective. I found Sonic 06, which clearly is this trope, far more playable than Sonic Unleashed, and that was definitely finished. That's something we need to work on too as a bit of a problem with this trope's usage. Though I do see how this feels like an audience reaction too? Maybe a split? (I don't think it would help, but I could see why it might separate what we're looking for)

I started an Obivous Beta Wick Check. Let's see how people are really using this thing.

Halfway done and hopes are not high. Lots of ZCEs and potholes. Would like some clarification on the stuff in the last folder.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Nov 26th 2022 at 8:32:25 AM

On the Need for Speed bit, the 3rd bullet doesn't feel like it legitimately counts. It's a normal feature, but it doesn't mean the game is outright unplayable or incomplete.

That's the only one I could easily figure out from reading it(been a very tiring work, so apologies).

And that's all of them checked. The way I have things set up right now, it's looking pretty miserable.

Now I'm thinking, should I actually be equating potholes with ZCEs? I did that with my Acceptable Targets Wick Check without realizing I probably shouldn't be doing that.

Edit: ALL potholes, I should say.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Nov 26th 2022 at 11:22:04 AM

That's what I do. If a pothole is seemingly irrelevant, then yeah, it's a ZCE.

Going back to the criteria for Obvious Beta, does it have to be a video game? There are a bunch of examples for other software, which makes sense, but also for hardware and other physical items. The description seems to flip flop between just video games and a more general definition.

Is there another trope that covers general programs, etc?

Cause I could see it covering both. It just has to specify the differences. Other material doesn't really fit under "virtually unplayable", for instance.

All tropes are focused on presented media content, otherwise we just make a useful notes page on the topic. There is always a grey area, but patterns in general software like Photoshop is not really on mission. They can certainly piggyback on general media tropes but they shouldn't be the focus subject.

My thought is that Game-Breaking Bug is not YMMV, so the only reason an Obvious Beta would be YMMV is from a belief editors can't stay on point (a la Big-Lipped Alligator Moment). I would point out, though, that post release patches has made verifying these things a bit complicated, with some glitch reports may only be from personal experience and not a common thing found across the playerbase. It's like reporting a Color Wash because your tv was on the wrong settings.

Here's my take on the matter currently, with the additional perspective that comes from thinking about this a lot.

• Gameplay elements are objective tropes because they are intentional design choices.
• Problems with the release quality of a work (bugs, quality control issues) are not YMMV, but neither are they tropes, because they are not intentional. They belong in Trivia.
• How people respond to the release quality of a work, including how it affects the work's reviews and/or sales, is an Audience Reaction.
• Emergent gameplay that results from bugs and their workarounds is also an Audience Reaction.
• When a bug becomes a meme, it's Memetic Mutation.
• If a well-known bug gets built into gameplay in future versions of a product, it's an Ascended Glitch.

Obvious Beta straddles the line. "Work has many release issues" should be Trivia, but "people resoundingly pan a work because of its release issues" is an Audience Reaction. If the creators of the game confirm that they fucked up and released an incomplete product, this doesn't make it an objective trope; it adds Word of God to the Trivia component.

From the perspective of the wiki, all of these things are statements of fact. "A bug is present" is factual, and so is "people think X". None of this indicates something that would fall under YMMV.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 28th 2022 at 11:10:55 AM

I think the argument for putting it on the YMMV side is, at what point does the problems with the game add up to declaring it an Obvious Beta? "Obvious", at minimum, suggests subjectivity. It's not necessarily about something being objectively unfinished so much as something being so riddled with problems that it's perceived as unfinished. I admit that looking at it that way poses a major risk of making it a complaint magnet, though.

To answer the question, not really strict. Obvious Beta, from the naming and original intention were to list games that were launched to the public but seems to work more like a "work-in-progress" than a finished product. However, as the years have passed by, it seems that instead of listing the original intention, it instead lists complete games with bugs/day 1 patches rather than "work-in-progress" types of games. Examples that I believe, stand out for this trope would be S.T.A.L.K.E.R. and Battlefield 2042, as both games had developer turmoil and evidence that point that the games released were still in testing but were never fully fleshed out, hence the hints of a beta. The point thrown to Skyrim, Scarlet and Violet and others seem to point Game-Breaking Bug than an Obvious Beta.

What I'm getting from this is that Obvious Beta is only around due to Grandfather Clause, and if someone proposed it today, it'd be bombed into oblivion.

Only if we're talking about the old definition. As it was too broad and too easy to create complaining. However, changing things to fix it up/make the criteria tighter is an improvement too.

That said, unless it's a case of bringing it to the TRS cause of too much complaining to not be tropeworthy, not really all that relevant to this topic anyway.

I disagree that it is a grandfathered trope. "Game released in a buggy, glitchy, unpolished state" is not an abstract, useless audience reaction. Because of patch reports it could almost be trivia.

Since a wick check is now done, are we still discussing this here first, or will Obvious Beta be queued up soon?

There's still discussion going on about what the best course of action is. If we can narrow that down a bit before I queue this, that'd be great.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Nov 30th 2022 at 10:13:12 AM