Disasturbator
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Can you please elaborate on that third item (Sandboxes not linked via indexing)?
EDIT: Also, I won't lie, even as the unofficial CM curator, it can get a bit cliquish at times, and I've for sometime been a bit uncomfortable how people get accused of being ban evaders without evidence.
Edited by ACW on Oct 7th 2022 at 4:37:45 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
While I would be for making new cleanup threads I can honestly see why an overall restart might be necessary and so, I say this as a regular of both, that there does need to be some major changes as I have noticed some of the stuff pointed out in OP. Though I am curious how that would be done.
Edited by Bullman on Oct 7th 2022 at 3:34:52 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Goku Black
So I do agree that we maybe get a bit too negative at times. So I am curious what you would like for us to do to improve.
For some of these. I do think a lot of them can be solved pretty easily. By encouraging some of the people on the thread who don't like go onto other stuff on the wiki into doing so (forums, tlp, edits. Etc).
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Professor Gigachad
Alright, so I guess I will show up as well. Yeah I have to agree with this, there has been a lot of issues around the thread for a while and something needs to change.
Another problem I would like to bring up is the culture of superiority where the words of a few tropers are trusted over others and are put on a predestal. I am not blaming anyone for this and I know the tropers this happens to don't like it either, but it is something that needs to be solved.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
the Retromancer
I'm not quite familiar with either thread, aside asking if it's fine to move pages with them, but from what pretty much everyone has been saying both threads are, to put it politely, have very strict house rules that are carried over to the wiki.
Remind me why Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard are even have threads like that to begin with. They sound like Forum Games versions of Evil Is Cool and The Chessmaster, the handling of that thread makes me think the two tropes are something closer to Just for Fun.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Lost in Space
I feel like I need to offer some perspective, even though I was not the initiator of this action nor am I planning to be deeply involved in it. I believe that it's necessary to understand the past to inform what happens next.
I was the moderator most responsible for setting up the original Complete Monster cleanup thread and establishing the rules for it. At the time, it was obvious that the trope was being badly misused and that different people had widely different standards for what was considered a "truly evil, irredeemable character". I did not have any direct influence on the Magnificent Bastard cleanup thread but it evolved from the standards of the CM cleanup.
The intent was not to form an insider culture where only long-time participants in the thread would be allowed to speak. Rather, it was to identify a set of criteria that could be applied with some degree of objectivity. After leaving the thread to its own devices, I missed the point where it crossed over from evaluating existing examples and into what I can only describe as a competition to screen every existing and new work for possible candidates.
Along the way, users who did not like the criteria we applied, particularly around certain hilariously stupid arguments like whether characters from SpongeBob SquarePants or My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic qualified, apparently decided to Start My Own and create or migrate to "spinoff" wikis where they could use their own standards, never mind what the mean people at TV Tropes said.
People being what they are, this metastasized into users of those wikis "raiding" TV Tropes to try to push their own standards onto us, and people using sockpuppets and burner accounts to jump into the CM (and to a lesser extent the MB) thread, which in turn led to its regulars becoming paranoid of such invasions and Hollering anything even remotely suspicious.
Making things even weirder, I didn't notice that the CM and MB cleanups turned into their own little subwiki with dozens of sandboxes and some sort of creative writing project, and the thread members rarely participate anywhere else. This was not the intention.
At this point I don't know what to do. CM and MB are among the most popular tropes on our wiki with hundreds of thousands of inbounds, but my worst fears back when we kicked off the cleanup have been realized: it's apparently impossible to handle them rationally. For some reason, people get fixated on what constitutes the "most evil characters" to a degree that I might call pathological if I were in a medical field.
We can either fix this — somehow — or face the frankly exhausting task of permanently locking the tropes and prohibiting all new examples or discussion of existing examples. I guess I'd have to be the "bad mod" and absorb all the hate for it, and I lack the energy these days to get a true nark on like I used to.
Edited by Fighteer on Oct 7th 2022 at 4:41:37 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Hi
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
‘d
Edited by Willbyr on Oct 7th 2022 at 3:38:34 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I wasn't here from the beginning, but I guess for CM, it just evolved that way?
EDIT: Based on what Fighteer said: It may take some work, but I'd rather put the work in than have to permanently lock the tropes (hell, if we do that we might as well just go nuclear and delete them all).
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Regarding that: Would be be allowed to use the Just for Fun namespace for the Sandboxes? Though some Sandboxes would probably have to stay (the Drafts; the Discussion Dates; MAYBE the to-do list; POSSIBLY the former CM page in case people wonder why someone was cut). The others—while I'd miss some of them—could go if they had to.
Edited by ACW on Oct 7th 2022 at 4:43:02 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
Do you want us to cut the sandboxes if their not allowed. As we're fine with it.
Edit: And yes. I do think we can save discussion. It just requires a lot of work to help fix it.
Edited by miraculous on Oct 7th 2022 at 1:42:37 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
So what is happening towards some bans?
Not the Eye
Definetely agree with ACW that we should work this out and that some sandboxex defenitely can use Just for Fun tag.
While I am personally functions of threads mostly staying the same I do agree that atidute definitely can become unfriendly and competetive. Definitely feel that tropers on threads should engage more with rest of wiki thought.
Edited by EmperorGeode on Oct 7th 2022 at 1:45:28 AM
Hi, there. Very happy to discuss things here!
As for this comment:
Notably:
This is because there is an immense ban evader on both threads, and some of us have been encouraged to be cautious on that front. Notably after one issue with cross-wiki raiding
. And also here where a rule was implemented by Fighteer. I'm not aware of overzealous hollers myself. Many times, we've had new people arrive and turn out to be socks of the same people.
Likewise, I'm not aware of any frequency of people being banned and others rallying to their defense. I know of one instance, based upon an example where the issue was more a mixup between what discipline was appropriate times
As far as this goes, like I said: I'm happy to have the conversation and if there is encouragement to not be insular, and to participate elsewhere? I think most of us are fine with that.
I would say we welcome most of it.
Professor Gigachad
When it comes to engagement with the rest of the wiki. Personally speaking, I try to edit outside of the CM thread and post outside of it. I do admittedly spend most of my time on the CM thread, but I do also do stuff like make pages on my own, help with cleanup of TRS stuff and I do also post in other forums, I am not sure if it's good enough. But yeah there are users that only spend there time on the CM thread and rarely if ever post anywhere else.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Re: public-facing sandboxes: Ben 10 is indexed on two sandboxes. As are numerous other pages. They should not.
I'd prefer most of the sandboxes to go. Discussion dates - fine. But the subindex C Ms By Author And Troper with several sandboxes indexed? That is too much.
Edited by Tabs on Oct 7th 2022 at 1:51:09 AM
I've been critical of needing so many sandboxes. Most people felt they were just for fun and didn't care much from what I thought, but...yeah, they're a bit out of control.
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Outsider who isn’t in the CM and MB threads here. While it would be tempting to delete or lock both tropes and be done with it, I feel we should wait until we’ve definitively exhausted all other options first. I think deleting or locking should only come when everything else fails. That’s just my opinion though.
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Lost in Space
The CM and MB Sandbox articles where examples are edited before being swapped into the wiki proper are fine, although nothing in the Sandbox namespace should be wicked from anywhere else. It's all the other stuff that's the problem, and moving it to Just for Fun just kicks the problem around. At the very minimum that should all be cut. If people want to preserve it offline or something, that's on them — we can't stop you.
As for ban evasion, yes, we see a lot of it, but frankly when every new entrant gets Hollered a dozen times it's hard to tell the difference between caution and paranoia.
[Edit: I'm going to mod mode my posts so they can be seen if the thread moves fast. I'm not in Angry Black Hole mode.]
Edited by Fighteer on Oct 7th 2022 at 4:48:24 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
The ban evader bit is indeed a tricky balancing act and there'e been a bit too much of a pendulum swing to over correct there and I'm happy to collaborate on a solution even if I don't presently have one ready.
I concur with Lighty on the participation bit and honestly I've found it fun if I consume a piece of media that nets me something to talk about on the thread and edit the related page(s) for character tropes, etc.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Ah, I see what you mean.
The CM numbers per page franchise can be go or changed to Just for Fun (if allowed), but the other Sandboxes are so that I don't have to recreate it each time when a new entry is added for swapping.
(: Okay, so Just for Fun's not fine, but the other sandboxes for swapping are. Could we keep discussion dates and maybe the to-do list?)
That's because, honestly, it kinda IS adding new examples all the time. Even if we didn't look at ANY older works, there'd still be new media coming out all the time. I'm not sure if there's a way to not do that.
Edited by ACW on Oct 7th 2022 at 4:51:08 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Speaking as a regular on the RL cleanup thread, I've noticed there seems to be a widening gap between forum posters and wiki editors (the venn diagram seems to pulling apart). I recall recently there was a similar situation involving forum games.
I took a look at the CM thread, and as an outsider, it is daunting. I know there is a lot of media out there, but is there really a need to have so many entries being voted on all the time? It seems like it's nonstop adding more and more examples.
I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I have personally been trying to focus on other parts of this wiki mostly simply editing and adding tropes more than commenting on either thread.
I also agree that most of the sandboxes can go as well.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Those sandboxes are not being moved to Just for Fun. As Fighteer said, that's just moving the problems elsewhere.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Some sandboxes are OK and others aren'tnote but the problem isn't the sandboxes, it's the thread behaviour.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
During an investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
This is a problem that goes back years and has progressively gotten worse. The moderation team cannot ignore it any longer. We have highlighted some specific issues that stem from this culture, in both of
the two threads
; this thread is about finding solutions to this culture problem.
Until the wiki arrives at a set of solutions (via consensus) that meet our requirements, there will be no further additions or edits to either trope (except to facilitate other cleanup threads). At a minimum, any solutions arrived at will entail the following:
Proposals have been compiled on the Thread Suggestions sandbox.
Things that are off the table:
Current progress:
Edited by crazysamaritan on Nov 2nd 2022 at 6:52:25 PM
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.