Superconsensus in crowners discussion

please i am begging you to stop misrepresenting my position and extend me a little goodwill in exchange for the hours i pour into making the wiki a better site.

edit to address this suggestion by Noaqiyem that i overlooked:

this is an excellent suggestion, i think. if justifying your vote was as simple as clicking a radio button, a lot more people would do it. you could even include an Other button for people to type reasons into. anonymity can be preserved this way too, it could just show the numbers of people who picked each reason.

Edited by ChloeJessica on Sep 4th 2022 at 3:46:40 AM

I am going to exit this and the other NRLEP debate because they are getting too heated and stressful for me and I would like to focus my energy on other things. Just letting everyone here know.

i am, to be honest, close to dropping out of cleanup efforts entirely. if, after all the time and work i put into this place, you think im the kind of person who would do the things ive been accused of, i have accomplished nothing.

Do not worry, you did nothing wrong. You're only stating your opinions. You've been a fantastic contributor to the wiki, and I genuinely appreciate the work you've done.

I only left this debate because I'm stressed about IRL stuff/something that happened in the Observations thread and I need to stay as calm as possible. That, in no way, is a value judgement on you—that's just something I'm doing to avoid exploding.

I don't think anyone is accusing you of anything, I think people are confused by your takes and disagreeing with you, which is not the same thing

I... think I'll stay away from the cleanup threads myself after reading all this. I mean no disrespect to the folks there but, at some point, a line has to be drawn. The NRL thread culture sounds like hell.

As for the crowner superconsensus thing, I don't know... It feels to me like we're making a mountain out of a molehill out of this. If the system truly is broken beyond repair, then perhaps we should look for evidence first to see if the overhaul arguments hold weight?

i have been directly accused of bad faith, of seeking a way to remove real life examples in defiance of consensus, of doing all this in the first place as retaliation for a crowner vote i didn't agree with, and of insisting on a particular solution that i never once tried to push after people rejected it. every time i counter one of these, another one rolls out. i am very nearly at my limit with the whole thing.

I just don't see why we need to change the entire sites policy over a single crowner that might have had bad intentions. That's kinda overkill.

we do not have to change site policy. we can take other steps to make discussions clearer, easier to follow, and easier to join. several alternatives have been suggested. i cannot be any clearer about this.

Edited by ChloeJessica on Sep 4th 2022 at 4:08:57 AM

Alright, let's calm things down a bit. We're scaring the casual folks away.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Sep 4th 2022 at 6:08:30 AM

FWIW I've actually already gone on record that I wouldn't vote one way or another for any of the Anti-X military tropes because I think they need TRS. (I don't think they're chairs, but I do think they should be merged). So that's one reason why I don't see Anti-Vehicle keeping its real life section to be quite as drastic an issue.

apologies. i removed the Bold Inflation.

i just want to say that i am genuinely hurt by the way i have been treated in this thread.

This thread is specifically for discussing changes to the crowner voting system. That is the entire purpose here ...

ETA: I just re-read through this thread, and I didn't see anyone accusing you of bad faith. You accused me of doing so, but again my concern is that you are too emotionally invested. One symptom of being too emotionally invested is when you mistake disagreement for personal attacks.

Above, miraculous didn't accuse you of anything, just didn't think that altering the crowner system (the purpose of this thread) was worth it given the problem at hand. You decided to take it personally.

Edited by laserviking42 on Sep 4th 2022 at 7:11:12 AM

I'm confused too? Wasnt this entire thread created to ask for a change in site policy?

God I feel disgusting and awful about having started this thread. This debate is getting so heated that I'm legitimately considering taking a 1/2-week break from all of TV Tropes to detox (if I decide to come back at all). I'm so sorry all of this happened.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Sep 4th 2022 at 7:12:46 AM

and then people rejected that change. and then i asked for alternatives to that change. and then people decided i was throwing a tantrum.

Damn it, everything happens when I'm away from my computer.

I said this already over PM, Chloe, but I certainly don't think you're arguing in bad faith or at least I know that's not your intention. All you've done is try and resolve a problem you see and it's valid to get frustrated when people aren't understanding your arguments; I do it all the time, and it tends to just make the situation more heated even as you're trying to calm things down instead.

I think if there's a problem here it may be a communication one. Nobody here is arguing in bad faith or has any sort of malicious agenda; we're just not doing our best at articulating how we feel and minor slips can make it seem like we have a different agenda than we actually do. The other big issue is ideological; some people are simply not going to see eye-to-eye on whether or not these things are problematic, and it's hard to debate if the stated problem is, in and of itself, subjective.

While washing the dinner dishes I had a thought. Do we currently give the NRLEP crowners the same treatment as TRS ones? As in, do we banner the trope and post an ATT post for every crowner vote? Because if we don't currently do that then we should start, and we should definitely find ways to encourage people to engage even if they're uncomfortable. Let's all start leading by example in explaining our votes, and maybe people will follow suit. I'm certainly willing to be more transparent about these things, and if it becomes "a thing" then it'd be easier to encourage others to state their opinions.

Maybe we should all step back for a minute and find a way to re-establish our opinions here too, in a non argumentative way, so that everyone is on the same page about how everyone else feels and thinks. Then we can resume the discussion but without any accusations or misinterpretations.

I suggested announcing NRLEP votes on ATT a while back, a few people were supportive, but not overly so.

Getting more people in the thread would be a good idea IMO.

I'm in favor of announcing RL votes in ATT for the record. to that idea.

I like that idea too.

Okay, it's becoming clear to me that the discussion is heated in good faith but the thread title assuming a solution that has been rejected is continuing to distract newcomers. Can a mod change it to "Drive-by voting and thread participation"?

That's basically what I had in mind - if not on the crowner itself, then on the New Post page, which might be easier to implement. At least it would be as good as all the IP threads full of "".

Edit: On the subject of which,

Please do return after you feel recovered. I've found that helpful myself before, and decisions here don't get made so fast that things will happen without you.

Edited by Noaqiyeum on Sep 4th 2022 at 12:29:02 PM

i am going to step back and breathe.

i have done a lot of work alongside a lot of yall. i think of most of you as colleagues at minimum. i don't want that to end, but it's hard for me not to see this as complete disregard for the person that i have attempted to prove myself to be through trying to make things better.

i will attempt to return to the discussion in a more productive fashion. i ask in exchange that there be no more question of my motivations. i think ive earned that.

i still want to solve this, whatever form that takes.

Oh, and I like the pre-defined messages idea, the main reason I didn't comment on it is that it's an admin-level change.

See, even here we're seeing the trouble of not just stating your opinions; it wasn't immediately obvious that I read the post and didn't feel the need to comment about it for reasons only known to myself. I think I will start striving to be more transparent about these things, especially for crowner votes, even if I'm the only one doing it.

Edit: Yeah, take some time away Chloe, it's hard to debate anything when you're feeling so emotional; come back when you're feeling better.

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 4th 2022 at 7:24:29 AM

to predefined messages if the admins are up to it.

I just want to say, ~The Mayor Of Simpleton and chloe, take a break if you need it but I hope you don't leave the site permanently. You do good work here and this is just a bad case of something going sideways. I would hate to see such a solid contributor leaving over something like this

Edited by Acebrock on Sep 4th 2022 at 4:26:44 AM