Hosting websites as indexes

Archive of Our Own used to have a list of works they host, but this was removed in 2019 after discussion in this ATT query. Steam also had a list of games which got removed per discussion here.

It seems like there's precedent for hosting platforms not having lists of hosted works. If we choose to enforce this, we'd have to remove lists of works from pages about Fanfiction Archives and Popular Webcomic Sites, among others. And if these sites' pages can't be used as indexes, is there even a point to keeping those pages around, since they're not creative works on their own?

Edited by Zuxtron on Aug 22nd 2022 at 9:14:05 AM

My personal opinion, I think we should remove the lists of games from hosting platforms, convert the hosting platforms that are noteworthy and worth documenting into Useful Notes pages, and cut the rest.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Aug 22nd 2022 at 9:45:34 AM

I have to agree with the above, unless hosting sites have tropable elements (separate from the works they host) or are involved in the creative process somehow (like TV networks), they shouldn't have a works page.

Useful Notes for the more notable ones definitely.

This would also be a great opportunity to make sure the games/comics/works hosted by those sites are A-OK as well (because surely Boyfriends. isn't rife with complaining).

I mean... it doesn't seem to be?

Funny enough, what sparked this thread was me bringing up in the ROCEJ thread that Arkhaven, which primarily hosts alt-right content including Stonetoss and Ben Garrison, has a page. My primary concern with the page at the moment is that it's written in a way that skirts around its extreme political views (as well as the fact that its creator is an extremely infamous alt-right activist), but if it ends up being cut in the purge, that would be a moot point.

Anyway, what about pages like Netflix and Crunchyroll? Or any TV channel? Should the list of shows on those pages be removed too, if we do this?

Edited by Zuxtron on Aug 22nd 2022 at 12:06:42 PM

Hard no to removing works from any Creator indexes like TV channels and streaming services — at the very least they should note the original programs put out. But these hosting sites aren't the ones commissioning and making the content. We can mention and maybe wick to them on the works' individual pages, but an index might get bloated.

Edited by mightymewtron on Aug 22nd 2022 at 12:11:12 PM

I was talking more along the lines of making sure the work pages were in order (particularly for Webtoon works), but that's a fair point as well.

agreed, but i don't think this is about Creator/ pages at large.

since Stonetoss was cut because it was dishonest about its content, i guess the question is: does the site admit the media it hosts are biased, or does it engage in Implausible Deniability? if the former, we just need to accurately and neutrally describe the content it focuses on (note that neutral does not mean condoning bigotry). if the latter, it'll probably have to be cut.

I don't know about Crunchyroll, but Netflix, in addition to hosting content, also produces original content, like Stranger Things. Which I would say qualifies it as a Creator.

Crunchyroll has started producing things, most notably High Guardian Spice.

Right, so that's the important thing, whether the site itself is involved in the creation of content. So fanfic sites don't count, since the works there are submitted by users. Then, shows that are licensed by a streaming service, but not actually made by it, shouldn't be on the pages?

As noted, "hosting" websites should only be used as indexes for works that are released under their own label/copyright — in other words, first-party works. Third-party works that they merely distribute should not be listed.

I have a question actually related to my proposal—what would everyone else here classify as "noteworthy" platforms for Useful Notes pages?

I was thinking stuff like Steam (already a UN page) and Newgrounds—to use those two as examples, they were hugely influential on media in different ways. Steam, for example, played a big role in bringing on the recent PC gaming boom and contributed as well to the indie gaming boom through its ease of publishing and game distribution, while Newgrounds became easily one of the biggest Flash animation sites on the web and launched the careers of several YouTubers (including Game Grump Arin Hanson and Smiling Friends co-creator Zach Hadel/psychicpebbles).

I was thinking other noteworthy platforms like those two are the worthiest of UN pages. But I brought it up to ask specifically—what kind of criteria should we be using to determine a noteworthy platform for a UN page?

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Aug 23rd 2022 at 11:48:39 AM

Don't forget about SpaceBattles.com, which has a folder listing works it hosts.

As does AlternateHistory.com, I tried cleaning it some months back but only got partway through.

[Edit: never mind, missed a couple posts here]

Edited by bowserbros on Aug 25th 2022 at 7:48:54 AM

ATT is questioning if Know Your Meme is viable for a trope page.

It does image hosting and analyses, but doesn't have a narrative that would be tropable. Thoughts?

Also asked here.

If no tropable narrative, then no works page I would say.

If it's notable enough we can make a Useful Notes page.

i don't know what entries would need to be on the KYM page rather than the YMMV or Meme subpage of whatever they came from. cut.

As a nonfiction analysis of works, it has the potential to qualify for a page.

The majority of valid examples, however, appear to come from the series of web videos that predate the website.

Important not to forget this or we'll end up getting rid of our pages for Turkey City Lexicon and The Tough Guide to Fantasyland.

I've always been on the fence about "analytical" content. Writing an essay about a trope is not the same thing as using that trope in a narrative work, and meta-troping by itself does not qualify a work for tropability. This is why we do not list Subverted Trope in an example list.

There would have to be something beyond merely documenting or discussing tropes. For example, the site could present short, fictional stories or videos that illustrate them.

Before someone asks, simply writing reviews is not tropable either unless the reviewer adds substantial original, transformative content (e.g., Zero Punctuation).

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 29th 2022 at 6:32:30 AM

So, uh...

does that mean Website.Tv Tropes should be cut?