TMS Entertainment cleanup

This page, along with many pages about studios they worked with or shows they animated, bore, and almost certainly still bear(s) the marks of sustained vandalism by notorious liar Famicom. Please ensure all information on these pages can be backed up by proper sources, especially claims about TMS outsourcing animation, claims about TMS being intended to work on projects but being dropped, claims about TMS' work process, claims about what animators worked on what projects, claims about any form of vendettas from or against TMS, and claims about the cost of outsourcing to TMS. Remember that any user-editable site may have been edited by him.

Do you have any evidence of this misinformation and vandalism? I do not know who this Famicom person is, so this thread is fundamentally meaningless without actual evidence of a problem

Yeah, give us a little more to go on... Or at least a courtesy link.

I woke up to see this…

I’ll wait and see.

FWIW, nowhere in the history is there anyone named "Famicom" mentioned, aside from the OP's edit reason.

Who was suspended for bizarre edits then?

eldomtom.

eldomtom2; they deleted most of the page.

Edited by Orbiting on Mar 15th 2022 at 3:15:03 PM

For the record, Famicom could be an alias that belongs to someone using a different username they know from somewhere else, and the way the page looks might have looked like something written by them. OP might have had a point in deleting large parts of the page, but more evidence should have probably been provided.

Edited by Piterpicher on Mar 15th 2022 at 9:30:37 AM

Maybe, but if so it would be have been helpful for them to say what evidence they had and wait for people to weigh in before deleting large swathes unilaterally.

Didn't see the edit when I typed this; but yeah.

Edited by Orbiting on Mar 15th 2022 at 4:32:38 AM

No offense intended to OP, but this is a good example of "how not to cleanup a page".

You should consult ATT before doing anything else, or at the very least, ask for opinions and input in the cleanup thread first.

I have no idea who "notorious liar Famicom" is, this seems like offsite drama or some long-standing grudge, so it's important to give background to people who don't know the background lore.

And most importantly, deleting large swathes of a page unilaterally is generally frowned upon, if you had given evidence that this was junk info or vandalism, it would probably be considered rash, but acceptable. However, simply saying that info that seems good at least on a surface level is "clear vandalism" and nuking it is a fast ticket to getting suspended.

OP may have had a valid point as said above, but they did not go about it in a good way at all.

...oh dear, I don't like how this unfolded. I'll attempt to explain.

"Famicom" is the colloquial name of a user on various animation forums, who is known in animator circles for posting various animator-related information without citations which has proven troublesome for sites like The Other Wiki that require citations.

To name a few, animators like Yoshinobu Michihata are improperly credited as working in various Warner Bros. cartoons without a proper citation. Several pages on the internet have since copied this uncited info, contrary to the cartoon's actual credits. A website dedicated to animation clips named Sakugabooru has been working on cleaning the Warner Bros. documents with this improper information due to the problematic nature of the lack of proper citations.

Disregarding the OP, what can be done to fact-check or clean the TMS Entertainment page? After a quick google search, the info about the outsourcing leads to The Other Wiki with the line about that already marked as questionable and un-cited.

Actually... TMS Entertainment is created by Tropers.MrFamicom (bounced from here as well in 2011) looking by history, and it hasn't significantly changed since.

Edited by Amonimus on Mar 16th 2022 at 3:35:28 PM

After doing some research, I remember that we banned a user named MrFamicom way back in 2011 for horrible grammar and making messes on the wiki. As far as I knew at the time, that was the end of it.

Looking further, they may have continued ban evading as HamSandMan77, who was bounced in 2017 for edit warring and ban evasion. Their other account was uforiablanket35. Edit: Per the ATT thread, they also used MegaTacoVan86.

If this person has been seeding false information into various wikis that is being taken as fact and replicated around the Internet by well-intentioned people, then obviously it's a problem. However, neither I nor any of the other moderators has time to do the necessary research. Coming into our site and vandalizing it while shrieking about conspiracies doesn't look good.

This cleanup is a good idea but it has to be conducted properly. Is there a source of truth that we can rely on for these various claims?

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 16th 2022 at 9:22:09 AM

Paging ~philipnova798, who has done extensive work on these articles based on their history.

Oh, Famicom is still around? I remember hearing about them like in 2014/2015, when they actively visited /co/ and kept posting about how TMS was going to produce a crossover movie between Adventures of the Gummi Bears, Tiny Toon Adventures and Hamtaro which would kick off reboots of those three series.

I did some research and yeah, this Famicom guy is apparently big on making things up about TMS, but OP could have handled it a lot better and my point above still stands.

We should clean the page, but let's take it easy and go point by point.

Yo, I'm here. For the most part my sources is mostly based on the credits of the shows the studios worked on, or other sources like Wikipedia, ANN, IM Db, any official website filmographies (if possible), or more obscure places like that old Burning Rangers interview as far as the entry for The Transformers is concerned on this page. This pretty much goes for most of the other filmographies I've edited, but I admit some of it is either guesswork or speculation at best.

A lot of Famicom's information, however, is pretty sketchy, and the fact that he either doesn't cite his sources or when he does, uses obtuse and often unrelated ones to try and prove his point just makes me scratch my head. There's some things I can buy up to a point, mostly because of how interconnected the Japanese animation industry is and all regarding, like say TMS outsourcing animation of American shows to other companies, but there's more than enough out there that makes many of his claims dubious at best. I'd be game for some cleanup if need be.

Oh yeah, I should note that Famicom has actually PM'd me in the past, so i know firsthand about his "nature", to say the least.

This is a extension of a edit summary, seen here.

Okay, I'm not sure what to do with this information, but this relates to what's going on with some of the pages in a uncomfortable manner.

So I've already went over last year regarding the user Famicom and their edits adding unconfirmed or false information about animators. However, recently something has happened that makes me highly question the motive behind the edits. Over on Twitter, Famihamu 64 has been making several posts regarding animation studios. Peppered inbetween these however, are numerous posts that consist of anti-Korean sentiment where he expresses vulgar disapproval of animation that came from Korea, equating them to censorship and props up one Japanese animation studio (TMS/Telecom) with details that seem to be fabricated. Famicom uses terms like "C-team" or "subcontractor" to occasionally demean Koreans under the veil of animation discourse. Over on TV Tropes, there's attributed various credits to various studios for many shows who were not present in their respective credits, or don't have any information on their involvement: from a cursory glance, many of them are small Japanese studios or are Korean in origin and feature several statements on their low quality animation. This is different on how something like TF Wiki Dotnet refers to these studios, it always uses terms like "subcontracted" while attributing them to TMS. These have no source and shows like Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog or Animaniacs had numerous attributions to studios who seem to have never worked on them in the first place, or had their involvement inflated like Telecom, where the AOSTH page had a entire section dedicated to the supposed numerous studios TMS Entertainment had used for the show: studios that I can't find any information if they ever worked on Sonic. And, like, this is Sonic we're talking about! The Sonic fandom knows a lot of stuff, and none of this was mentioned in their fan curated documentation databases like Sonic Retro who use all sorts of citation. Something wasn't adding up.

I'm more intimately familiar with Sonic the Hedgehog than any of the other shows that were mentioned in these edits, so I'll start here: Every single episode of Adventures of Sonic has the same credits roll as early as the first episode, and in this credits roll they credit a massive list of people who worked on all the episodes, including the four animation studios (Saerom, TMS, Hong Ying, and Rainbow) and every single overseas animation director. This roll never changed, until the special Sonic Christmas Blast which uses a unique roll.

This is in contrast to a show like Batman which has unique credits for every episode — as anyone who worked on one Batman episode won't always be around to work on another. Given the "all-in-one" method the Sonic credits use, I'm led to believe that these were heavily planned ahead of time (with possible missing credits in mind) and these four studios were the only ones who were asked to do animation for the Sonic cartoon. And in this unitary credits roll, it credits everyone and never leaves any out from one episode to another. This means whatever studio attribution was added to TV Tropes is unsourced: you can't gleam at the credits as everyone is credited in a unchanging roll. You need a shifting credits roll to discern who worked on what. But what got me raising my eyebrow is something that can be substantiated: several animation cels, model sheets, and drawings from the show have since come to the public's hands, and several of them are of Chinese or Korean origin. Since there's only one Chinese studio listed and two Korean studios, you can easily infer that these all came from Hong Ying and Saerom/Rainbow respectively. Very rarely are they of Japanese origin, and to date I have yet to see a confirmed TMS cel. Blackbot the Pirate is the only known TMS episode, and that's because it uses characteristic animation techniques consistent with TMS's known credited contemporary work. And we've yet to really see production material from that episode.

What am I getting at here? Judging from the various unsourced credits to seemingly unrelated studios, his rather charged posts on Korean animation, with various remarks on their quality while TMS is propped up with ostensible information with a TON of these studios lumped in with them with no rhyme or reason, I believe that Mr Famicom was attempting to do a form of historical revisionism because of his dislike for Korean animators, and he's attempted to bloat a Japanese animation studio's portfolio in several ways to make it seem bigger on this site than what's actually verified (Bruce Timm has confirmed that TMS only worked on a small share of Batman episodes, according to here and the presence of Japanese studios are heavily inflated on TV Tropes under the cover of "uncredited"). Several animation studios are lumped in to this Carpenterian beast of just "Telecom" for the sole purpose of undermining a country's entertainment output.

Normally I wouldn't have issue with fan trainspotting with someone providing insider information or just guessing on who did what in their favorite TV show, but judging from Mr Famicom's posts on Twitter where many of his writings are laced with a layer of ostensible intention and a fixation on hating South Korea, I believe many of these edits were racially motivated. Changing a historical record on popular cartoons because you don't like a country's outout and pushing your idea as fact to disparage a country while causing tons of collateral damage to those trying to do actual research is... well, that's not cash money, dude.

I've revised the edits on those that reference Sonic to accurately reflect what we do know (these companies are all credited at once, there's some episodes with a Animation Bump, but we can't say for sure who did what), but ideally I'd want to see the rest of these edits for other shows changed in a elegant manner. This is... man, I don't know what to think of this.

Edited by MelsHellishTropeyHole on Aug 2nd 2023 at 12:02:33 PM

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to discuss.

It is a cleanup for this one banned user's inaccurate additions, it seems fair enough to lay the problem out in a cleanup thread.

Okay, after some contemplation I'm considering tackling the issue that is Toshihiko Masuda's page. Currently, it's very centralized on the fabricated idea Famicom has created and focuses on his ostensibly popular American work. According to the page, he has a "wacky style" and changed the course of the whole Telecom company which has done everything under the sun. This is in stark contrast to what his known animation output actually looks like. In reality, Masuda is just your regular animator/director.

However, I did a bit of a oopsie and initially tried cutting the whole page. That was my bad. Sorry.

The current plan at the moment is to rewrite the page to be more focused on his wider works. The one roadblock I'm facing is... well, there just isn't much to write about the man, unlike popular directors like Yuasa, Imaishi, or heck, Miyazaki, Masuda doesn't really have anything to stick out or write home about.

He's just the person who directs animation or occasionally animates/storyboards scenes. Even the works we know for sure that he's done doesn't really jump out to me. Like, yeah, he's done Lupin, Pokemon, Attack on Titan, Akira, and Cybersix, but the amount of stuff he's done in those shows is kinda small.

Figuring out how to rewrite the page has proven tricky for me because of this. With that being said, I'll see about figuring a way to go about rewriting it to get rid of the fabricated story, especially that weird bold claim of how he "changed the course of Telecom more than Miyazaki". That's... hmm.

Schedule slip hit me in the naaaaaaaads. Sorry about that, folks. Life got in the way.