Derivative Works/ Namespace (formerly On Fairytale Franchise Pages)

It sounds like we're going with WorksBasedOn/, since we have no dissent from that name yet. Not bad for the namespace, at least.

As for the sorting, a few opinions:

• Official adaptations/derivatives should not be on this list because they can be added to the main page of the work.
• I do like the separation between works that take the story straight and works that mock/parody it.
• I'm not certain that I like separation between adaptation/remake. It isn't a clear enough line from my perspective, unless the new work is in the same medium. I don't like the Sequel Fic separation either.
• I'm undecided on summary vs plain index.

I'd especially like more comments on the sorting. This is something that we should push through with and get more opinions on. I'm thinking that we will need to make a Works Based On TLP draft, too.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

We can always plug this in ATT and Trope Report if we want more people to know about it.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

How about merging this with Fan Works for a Derivative Works namespace? I suppose that would bring into question what the meaningful difference is between a fan work and a "not-fan" work, which is something I haven't really seen addressed TV Tropes.

For the purpose of discussion here, there are three types of derivative works:

1. Works with the permission of the copyright holder
2. Works without permission from the copyright holder
3. Works based on an IP without copyright

The only reason why we have a fanfic namespace is because people wanted a separation in Literature between 1 and 2. Pages that are in category 1 can be listed/indexed in the description of the original work (or on the single-medium/multimedia franchise page). Pages that are in category 2 are indexed on Fan Works. This thread was brought up because it is discussing works in category 3, which is a completely different situation (legally speaking).

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

The Sherlock Holmes page would have to be included in whatever happens here even though it's not a fairy tale because it's in the public domain (mostly) and Adaptation Overdosed.

Might need some sorting to figure out which adaptations were officially licensed and which aren't, though.

And that "mostly" goes away in a few years. When's the last Holmes copyright expiration?

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

We're 15 months away in the US.

If this goes through, Franchise.Sleepy Hollow should also be included.

More generally, I'm very much on board with moving general fairy tale and public domain pages away from the Franchise/ namespace, because they definitely aren't franchises.

Regarding a specific namespace name, WorksBasedOn/ could work. I think it sounds a bit clunky, honestly, but it gets the idea across. Maybe OralTradition/? It seems a bit more elegant, but it also doesn't account for things like written works, so it's not as comprehensive.

Call it Derived From perhaps. We have source works and derivative works, after all?

How is it different from Whole-Plot Reference? Adapted From might be another namespace name...

Cinderella Plot, a Whole-Plot Reference Sub-Trope allows the most Blatant through, such as A Cinderella Story...

Edited by Malady on Mar 23rd 2022 at 9:47:31 AM

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Actually, a thought just occurred to me. How would this proposed concept interact with the Myth/ namespace? A number of folktales and fairytales are under that already — say, Myth.Paul Bunyan and Myth.Robin Hood — and it seems like at least some of the current "franchises" could fit under it neatly, but it might not be the best choice for more recent public domain works.

What about a "Public Domain" name space? The page could link to any original media if there is any, and adaptations.

Edit: On second thought, that's probably a terrible idea. Too many things in them wouldn't be public domain.

Edited by Eiryu on Apr 2nd 2022 at 5:21:26 AM

Yeah...

I still kind of like the whole "Derivative Works" idea.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

The oral tradition is the "original work", and there is no such thing as an "official" adaptation because they predate copyright. Derivatives (such as Disney's Robin Hood animated film) would be listed in the Works Based On subpage rather than the main page for Robin Hood.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

If I'm understanding you correctly, this proposal would essentially result in each public domain story/setting/cycle/whatever having two pages, as such:

• A Myth/ page (or Literature/ page for more recent public domain works), which would contain a description of the oral tradition itself, its origins, its tropes, etc.
• A Works Based On/ or whatever else we agree on page, which would strictly be a list of derivative works and adaptations and not a descriptive page.

Does that seem broadly correct?

Broadly, yes. There's a bit of detail missing that I'd like to clarify. Every public domain story/setting/cycle/whatever that existed before copyright would have two pages. Public domain works that existed after copyright would have three, as such:

• A works page, which would contain a description of the story itself, its origins, its tropes, etc.
• A Fan Works/ subpage, which would strictly be a list of derivative works and adaptations and not a descriptive page.
• A Works Based On/ (or whatever else we agree on) subpage, which would strictly be a list of derivative works and adaptations and not a descriptive page.

The original work article would have to exist before we'd make either subpage. Works that are in that nebulous space where copyright expired (or isn't respected) in one country but is in another might have both, depending on what happens. Confusion over copyright will cause problems with this division, but I'd rather stick with "it's fanfic only if it violates copyright" instead of restarting that argument.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I agree with this idea, a fanfic of a work that predates copyright, like a myth, isn't a fanfic as much as it is simply another adaptation of the story.

oh hey how are you doing?

I wonder what we do with stuff like Gabrielle-Suzanne de Villeneuve's 1740 Fairy Books that have Beauty and the Beast, and stuff, in contrast to older things like IIRC Cinderella.

Edited by Malady on Apr 6th 2022 at 3:08:32 AM

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I'm not exactly clear on what you're wondering about. Can you clarify?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

My idea was that her stories, while fairy tales, aren't from way before recorded history or something, we know a lot about how she's the original creator, but you covered that with "before Copyright vs. after Copyright" in your previous comment.

I just forgot how old / young Copyright is.

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If somebody makes an original sequel to a public domain story, how is that more of an adaptation than a fanfic like Frozen: A Dark Retelling? Public domain is a line drawn in court, but isn't really relevant to whether a story is an adaptation.

The Statue of Anne apparently passed in 1710, so Beauty and the Beast is younger than copyright.

I see the main issue is that Franchise/ was an unfortunate name. Technically, franchises are works with 2 or more official Derivative Works. In TVT "franchise" refers to both multi-work series and to what that should technically be called Mutli Media/ when there are no sequels and only adaptations.

I've already brought up the idea to TLP an index for Works Based On (Or Folklore Based Works or else to avoid confusion with Fan Works) similar to Referenced by... or Elf Works to resolve to issue of Myth.Classical Mythology being used like a trope example. A WorksBasedOn.Classical Mythology could list all Derivative Works, describe common elements, and be used as a trope for works that heavily borrow from it.

So while I'd prefer to reduce the amount if namespaces, if we don't like using Franchise/ for things that aren't actual franchises, I'd be fine renaming it or splitting it into either or both mentioned.

Edited by Amonimus on Apr 7th 2022 at 11:59:54 AM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

edit: In case it makes the discussion easier to follow, this was written before I saw the above post.

I'm hesitant about the name Works Based On, since Fan Works technically fall under that category. We merged Recap and Synopsis, so there's precedence for avoiding namespaces whose names suggest they could overlap.

I think it's relevant to figure out why this is different from Fan Works instead of just reaffirming that the distinction exists. I imagine having them both in the same namespace would be simpler, so if it were up to me we'd be addressing that first.

Edited by N1KF on Apr 6th 2022 at 1:39:17 PM

Most are Whole-Plot Reference no? As previously said, the sub-trope Cinderella Plot also holds all Cinderella adaptations, for instance and not sure if it shouldn't.

Edited by Malady on Apr 7th 2022 at 4:49:10 AM

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Because I'm not going to waste my energy arguing over what is "fanfic" and what isn't until after we get the Literature/ and Fanfic/ namespaces merged, and I doubt I'll have the energy to do that until after the 2.0 database shift occurs.

Classifying the idea as the same as Fan Works means convincing people to put Cinderella as a Fan Film. I don't have the energy for it.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Actually, why wouldn't Adaptation tropes work again?

Disney and stuff take Literature and adapt it into Film / Animation.

I'm not sure there's been a fairy tale that can be adapted into the same medium, by the definition of Adaptation, since that's more a retelling / remake?

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Edit: Adaptation Franchise is a phrase that could be a namespace?

Edited by Malady on Apr 7th 2022 at 7:13:02 AM

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