TLP Community Issues

The other problem with the need to throw bombs at a draft super quickly is it makes it so much harder to clean a draft up, because no matter how much you rewrite it, it's highly unlikely it'll ever get the net hats to launch.

For example: this draft is not an unworkable concept, it was just a poorly-written stub. Already people are finding ways to rewrite it and work it into an actual trope with examples. But somehow it already got 14 bombs in less than three days, which means it would need at least 19 hats to "officially" launch. It doesn't have any hats, so there's no point to adding more bombs after the fifth one other than to...feel included, I guess? It's not like anybody ever comes back to change their bomb to a hat, especially for drafts that sit around for a long time. Now instead of using the draft that's already there, we'd likely have to start from scratch with the same concept, which isn't the worst thing in the world but gets annoying with the "can't use names from nuked drafts" bug and general clutter of the TLP.

I've also seen tropes that were cleaned up from something very poor into a viable (albeit still clearly in progress) trope, but were rogue-discarded because of the bombs left over from its poorer state. Case in point, the "Campy Drama Teacher" draft.

Edited by mightymewtron on Oct 6th 2020 at 3:14:32 PM

That many bombs can also be mortifying for a sponsor, especially if they're new. 5 bombs is much easier to swallow than 20.

I am bothered that a query starting with TLP cultural problems has become a "more moderators are needed" one. While it's true it wouldn't help with TLP's problems at all for a number of reasons.

~Bolt DMC: Well, yeah, as it says on Know the Staff it's generally not a good idea to PM individual moderators for issues. Ask The Tropers is generally a better place.

I know the problems with Ask The Tropers getting a lot of kibitzers and - frankly - a lot of queries that should go to discussion pages. I've taken some steps at mitigating the problem by telling folks to take issues who have better places elsewhere and closing queries, but it's a wooden hammer approach and it doesn't seem like people are taking the hint.

Well, that's why I pointed out that if engineers could have the ability to early-discard drafts and stuff, a lot of TLP issues would be solved. It's less about needing mods to step in 24/7 and more about our inability to do much more than watch bombs pile up until the trope is finally discarded, but I agree the mod thing was very off topic.

Still, it's hard for us to self-moderate when none of us have the ability to control any of the things that would allow us to enforce things like proper TLP behavior or proper video uploading, so it's a logical leap in topics.

I don't have the time to say a lot right now. Maybe when I get home. Feedback still welcome, though. Also, I was writing this at the time of post 24.

I have started at least leaving comments like "I support this draft and am shocked we didn't have a page on it yet" along with examples, with my reasons partly listed on Sandbox.Were Improving The TLP. I believe this helps the sponsors' morale and makes us sound more than just soulless example dispensers. I don't know what the limit for such comments should be before it starts sounding discouragingly artificial or flattering, but I at least do this, others can too.

Also, agreed we're understaffed. I probably wouldn't be a TLP engineer as I don't post there as much, but I have always been in support of the position.

Edited by Piterpicher on Oct 6th 2020 at 9:24:18 PM

For the record, seeing the TLP regulars leave encouraging constructive comments on a recent newbie draft was very heartwarming. I just worry that on the flip side, being too "good job" and "well done" in our comments can look condescending. (I try to leave constructive criticisms like a high school teacher grading an essay.)

I usually just focus on criticisms, though if a draft looks good to me I'll say so. My concern is that whenever I post an actual critique on a draft and don't bomb it, someone else always bombs it, and I'm always scared that the sponsor would assume it was me even though it wasn't.

I've been trying my hardest to not bomb things; I've been saving them as a last resort now, which is why the situation with Firework Faces tonight really frustrated me; while I understand that it's near impossible to actually critique...well, a literally blank draft... there was still no purpose to the bombs. After a while it became abundantly clear that, yes, the draft needed to be discarded, but people just kept going, and I was honestly scared we'd have another incident and that people like me would get somehow swept up in the chaos when my only intent was to stop history from repeating itself.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 6th 2020 at 3:27:37 PM

Personally, when I run drafts, I don't get hung up on specific people throwing bombs, and if they give actual criticisms like you usually do, then I don't mind anyway since it shows me what to work on. Still, the whole "sign your hats/bombs" idea would go a long way.

It's very rare that I bomb things unless I think they're hopeless and need a push to discard. Prior to the incident I may have thrown redundant bombs in for fun, probably because I'm so rarely liberal with bombs that a draft that warrants them is often quite amusing, but now I'm also on edge because there are still people willing to snark at drafts rather than help.

On that note: there's a seemingly-new troper commenting on some TLP drafts with nothing but snark and it's concerning me. Should we ping them here to explain why we don't want that? I don't want to take it straight to ATT.

Edited by mightymewtron on Oct 6th 2020 at 3:34:08 PM

I know who you're talking about and yeah, they've been concerning me, too.

^^^^^^^ Septimus Heap, thanks for the feedback, and thanks for the link. Haven’t seen this before, and it’s helpful info. Wouldn’t hurt to know which moderators are actively online at a given time in case of emergencies. Not to worry, am trying to avoid moderator P Ms nowadays except in extreme emergencies.

I will say that I find TV Tropes, good as the site is in many ways, to be a bit of a labyrinth. I always try to find the proper venue for things and figure out how to address certain issues, but a good bit of the time it’s not self-evident what the right thing is to do or where to find information. It probably comes with the territory given how much information you want to document (and correctly so), but I’m continually surprised at the useful stuff I stumble into here. Thought the feedback might be useful, anyway.

Best wishes.

Is ~Meta Four still actively moderating? Or does he just comment on TLP drafts? Because I think he should be the one in charge for now when issues like these pop up.

I feel like there's been an uptick in rude/unproductive comments recently, even though they died out for a while following the 5T incident. This draft looks like it got a random snarky comment after it was discarded already.

Edited by mightymewtron on Oct 6th 2020 at 7:26:00 AM

And what's bad is that even when people do try and offer legit criticism or help, they're drowned out by bombing sprees and snark. I'm sure you yourself can attest to that, having experienced that on the draft.

Yep. It actually started as a decent discussion, trying to help the sponsor with their concern, and I guess after we'd said everything that could be said, it just snowballed into stress relief. That's important context that might be forgotten: it didn't start as chaos. It progressed.

Right.

By the time I got there, it was already chaos because I'd been away for most of the day, so I wasn't there when it was serious; but it was originally just a...well, I shouldn't say normal draft. But it wasn't a shitshow.

To be honest I think this is a microcosm of larger issues with the Tv Tropes community. There is a level of gatekeeping and Serious Business culture throughout the wiki-oriented parts of the community that is not particularly fun, often leads to unnecessary conflict, and could be seen as hostile to newbies. ATT is full of threads of people essentially asking for other users to be banned, and the number of policies and rules has grown in my time here. Many people, myself included, get a sense of satisfaction from knowing the Right Way of doing things and holding that over people.

The TLP is a nexus of this because it brings together some of the sites most dedicated users with complete n00bs. It’s very easy to get frustrated at these drafts that in no way resemble a proper wiki page, and I echo calls to make only available after a certain amount of time or edits.

There have been positive changes in my time here. I appreciate the crackdown on shoehorning and bad TL Ps which has already produced some positive results. But there have been negative cultural shifts as well. We all need to remember that it’s just a show; I should really just relax.

Honestly, I feel that there aren't enough concrete rules on this site. Nearly everything is left to the nebulous concept of "consensus", and the end result is that nobody really knows what the "proper" way to do certain things is and everyone has their own idea for what is best.

If anything, most policies hadn't been added, they've been solidified and better defined and better enforced.

But yeah. I've said in the past how I've started becoming jaded about wiki issues, and how the fun aspect of TVT has gotten lost for me. I've gravitated away from the things I used to adore about this place and it's all about work and upkeep and it's easy to get frustrated when you see people do things wrong because, hey, they're not the ones spending hours of their free time making sure pages don't have ZCEs on them.

The TLP makes it more stressful because it's a community-driven environment and if people do things wrong the entire operation will fail.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 7th 2020 at 3:19:16 PM

I do agree that the rules can be overwhelming. Both creation and stricter enforcement. The wiki has grown more authoritarian and strict in terms of quality and scope, which is good for editors, but not so much for newbies, readers, and in some cases SEO. Though quality is also important for these aforementioned groups to differing extents, so again, it depends. In some cases, what editors believe is best does not get in the way of anything really, which is why I'm fine with it.

Maybe if an issue gets on your nerves too much, consider ignoring it and focusing on something else? Like, if you hate ZCE cleanup, consider something else you can improve about pages, or just improve your own stuff? Leave ZCE cleanup to someone else who likes doing it. This is what I've been doing lately, focusing on creating work pages and expanding existing content.

Admittedly, it's hard to say how one would apply it to TLP as it's more of a community process, but consider how to implement it at least. How about trying to just ignore troll drafts or blatantly low effort ones for a start.

Edited by Piterpicher on Oct 7th 2020 at 11:09:27 AM

It's a good idea to just let those drafts slip away, especially in a part of the wiki that's fast moving and where drafts can get lost in several pages.

I don't have ZCE clean up but it is a lot of work and that's because it's never just "ZCE cleanup". It's also indentation and misuse and grammar and more.

As for letting drafts slip away, that'd sound reasonable if we weren't hundreds of posts into a project designed to eliminate the massive TLP backlog. I can't in good faith allow it to pile up again by not zapping blatantly bad drafts when we have the chance. The issue is that people take it too far.

That's why the two-step process is good. If a low-quality draft with a tropeworthy concept pops up, people will focus more on giving advice for the description and adding examples than bombing it to death if the hats/bombs aren't activated. Another thing would be to edit-lock the drafts so people won't be afraid to take turns editing them.

Heck, the YKTTW for Dada Comics came from several editors taking a blank draft and editing it into a tropeworthy (if surreal) concept. Things are way different these days, but still.

So that fireworks draft was now remade by the same troper, with barely any additional context added. I can't help but feel that if we added more comments on that initial draft explaining why a minimalist draft isn't acceptable, maybe they wouldn't have tried that.

Meh, I thought your comment was funny since it wasn't actually rude or mocking the draft. In fact, you kind of complimented the only thing that the draft had to offer at this point, so you were being nicer than most.

Edited by mightymewtron on Oct 7th 2020 at 6:39:09 AM

I regret making my first post there but it was mostly just me posting my instant reaction, and more just to joke about how cool the title sounded without context compared to the nothing that was the draft itself. Plus other people had already given actual points by then so I was less concerned with being articulate, but I do wish I hadn't made the post because once the bombs started multiplying I felt guilty for it (despite never bombing it personally).

Been a couple of weeks since we had this talk, but I have a question. If a draft is clearly getting a lot of bombs early into its run, and it's clear it needs to be discarded but it can't be yet, should we holler a mod even if there's no issues yet?

This low-effort, redundant draft got 11 bombs in 4 hours, and while it hasn't gotten many popcorning comments yet, there's at least one and I don't want to take the risk. As a redundant stub, it's an obvious candidate for deletion anyway.