Character-named tropes.

As I pointed out in Ask the Tropers, some tropes, including Agent Mulder, Stupid Sexy Flanders, and Vetinari Job Security, are still named after characters. They told me to bring it here, so I did.

My take on these is that, while they're definitely not great names, I'm not positive it's worth changing them all. They've been grandfathered-in, and (unfortunately or maybe fortunately), their current names are too recognizable.

If any should be changed, it should be because they don't actually work. So things like wick checks for misuse would be a good start. Changing for the sake of changing when it actually is effective as a trope and causes no issues seems pointless.

Not allowing new character-named tropes doesn't mean the old ones are bad. It just means we are going a different direction these days.

Perhaps this would be a good place to discuss which of the currently character-named tropes, if any, are worth a rename.

All such tropes should be renamed to comply with our policies. However, this is only a priority if the existing name demonstrably leads to misuse or underperformance.

Fair enough. Right now there's some that might be. It depends if they're confusing or not as a name, but also require wick checks. It'd be easiest to do that in here, and if it's the case, open a TRS thread for them as a whole or just one each in a slower process.

I feel "rename for the sake of policy alone" doesn't show they're an issue. They should be an issue to require the rename first and foremost. I don't think they should ever need to be a priority unless they have legitimate issues. I get why the policy is what it is, but Grandfather Clause is also a fair thing to keep in mind. I mean, whatever happens happens. I'm not going to get up in arms about it. Most important thing is the name actually works as is more than anything else, imo. Rename or not.

Precisely. In an ideal world, we'd change all of them, but there's so much work to be done that there is a legitimate concern about diverting resources from more urgent projects.

What I mean is we shouldn't really have to rename them due to Grandfather Clause even with the new policy, if they work. Sorry, your reply wasn't clear if you got my opinion on it or not.

Tropes that include a character's name but still say what they're about, like Batman Can Breathe in Space and Superman Stays Out of Gotham are fine, as are Colonel Kilgore and possibly Sergeant Rock since they're Meaningful Names. The Scrappy and derivatives are probably staying under the Grandfather Clause, and I'm willing to keep The Creon, The Ophelia, and The Renfield for coming from classic literature/mythology. The Neidermeyer and Cousin Oliver should probably be renamed; perhaps "Replacement Kid-Appeal Character" would work for Cousin Oliver? It's also worth noting there was a TRS discussion on renaming Agent Scully and Agent Mulder back in 2011.

Edited by rjd1922 on Sep 26th 2022 at 10:33:46 AM

I plan to make an exhaustive list of tropes with deprecated naming schemes (character-named, Stock Phrases, too unclear, "Trope" as a placeholder), and then give my thoughts on renaming them.

Batman Can Breathe in Space is one that should be renamed to Breathing in Space, since it amounts to Word Cruft in the title, though I always saw it as ultra-low priority.

In my opinion, though, the invocation of grandfather clauses here obstruct usability and, in this case, violate a fundamental computing rule called the principle of least astonishment. We should not astonish people looking for a trope by putting it under a nigh-incomprehensible name.

Breathing in Space is extremely bland as is and doesn't make it sound interesting. There's a possibly better name for it, though, but it should make it clear it's not a normal thing, which is why the character variation of the name fits a lot.

Also, the Grandfather Clause is only a factor for the names that actually don't have any misuse/problems to them. They're lower priority otherwise. Ones that actually fail as a name make sense to change. The rest can potentially be changed later on, if a better name is thought of.

Oof, now I see how there is potential for conflating Space Is Air and Batman Can Breathe in Space, particularly this line in the former's description: "If everyone can do this, it's probably because Space Is Air." Note that latter is about spaceships using airplane-air physics in spaces.

That's why it's "special" they can breathe in space. It doesn't mean the current trope name is perfect, but there has to be a good idea of why it's special in general. It's also not really Word Cruft in itself. It's not an overly long name. It's also not specific to superheroes either(but they do hold importance).

There's probably a better name for it too, in this case. The description is also fairly short in itself. The question in this case is if there's misuse alone.

That doesn't make any sense. Just because Space Fighters can use aerodynamic physics in combat doesn't mean people can breathe in space. I think most people, even the most scientifically illiterate, understand that you can't live outside a spaceship without protective gear.

Batman Can Breathe in Space is for works that simply ignore that, without explanation (or with a token one). The name of the character is irrelevant to the trope. Even the "breathe" part is a little misleading, since oxygen is only one of the many many problems facing an unprotected organic lifeform in a hard vacuum: pressure (or lack thereof), heat, and radiation to name just the basics.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 27th 2019 at 2:33:06 PM

Then why do the Laconic and Playing With subpages say it amounts to "character can breathe in space"? I see nothing in the description or otherwise that says this must be a superpower limited to one person, especially since it's a matter of Artistic License, which is meta-fictional and thus beyond individual characters' abilities.

When you put it that way, I wonder if maybe Space Is Safe would be a better name?

Edited by Brainulator9 on Oct 27th 2019 at 2:52:12 PM

Can we put aside Batman Can Breathe in Space and focus on tropes with names that are actually unclear, like The Neidermeyer and Cousin Oliver? What do you think of renaming Cousin Oliver "Replacement Kid-Appeal Character"?

That is not what I said. And those laconics are completely wrong then. They don't really make it clear how important it is that it's not a natural thing.

I said it must be a special reason they're able to survive in space. Not simply because of superpowers. Those are just an example of "special". It has to basically ignore normal logic for it to actually work, which is the point of the trope.

Edited by Irene on Oct 27th 2019 at 1:56:03 PM

I'll add one more to the "don't rename" list: Flanderization. It requires knowledge of the Simpsons character, but the term is so well-known that there's no point trying to rename it.

Agreed. There's a post of character-named tropes here, but some have already been renamed.

Edited by rjd1922 on Oct 27th 2019 at 2:06:51 PM

The Cousin Oliver rename, while low-priority, is one I can get behind. I'll also be willing to temporarily suspend conversation on the space-breathing trope.

Things like Flanderization have enough off-site use that I think they can be kept. The same applies to things like Gainaxing and Jumping the Shark.

One character named trope I don't see on any list is Solomon Divorce; I get the Bible reference, but something like Siblings Separated by Divorce would be so much clearer.

Clearer, yes; concise, no.

Remember a trope should only be renamed if it's causing a problem. The Quisling, for example, is technically a character named trope, but it had that name for decades before we got our hands on it.

Solomon Divorce seems to be doing fine. It only has 83 wicks, which seems a little low, but it's not a particularly common trope. If you're really worried, do a wick check to see if there's something wrong.

I’d argue that Solomon Divorce is doing fine despite its name, rather than because of its name; the other parts of the page do a good job of explaining the trope (especially the page image), it’s probably on enough indices so that people can find the page, and the name is weird enough to prevent misuse

I’m OK if the name never gets changed; I just want to make sure it’s on any eventual list to consider.

Anything from a work over 300 years old is probably fine to keep. The fundamental problem with character-named tropes is Fan Myopia.