On whether deleted developmental content can be troped

This came up in Ask the Tropers recently. Should deleted content be tropeable? As in, Cut Songs and deleted scenes. Where is the line drawn?

I've asked in the past and usually have been told that, no, anything What Could Have Been can't be troped. If it's about deleted characters, deleted songs, deleted scenes, etc then it's trivia and can only be listed under Trivia pages like What Could Have Been or Cut Song.

On examples of this, Lessons in Sophistication once listed an example from a Cut Song of Frozen. The lyrics to the song are online and the first half of the song was sung on Frozen's soundtrack. The example was deleted and this was the edit reason: "What Could Have Been is trivia; trope examples should be from published works. Trope examples should give specific instance".

Edited by Pichu-kun on Aug 23rd 2019 at 8:19:10 AM

That is accurate. Content not in the finished, released work is not tropable and may only appear in a Trivia subpage.

There are a few exceptions, such as video games with long update histories like Minecraft, but they don't generally apply to films.

Part of the issue is some of the content we're not sure where to put in Trivia. Is anything removed more or less What Could Have Been? That feels like a different trivia piece at times. It's more for stuff that was in consideration, where stuff we see being worked on is visible but removed. Is there a tangible difference?

What about unreleased games? Several, such as Sonic Xtreme, have pages. I asked in ATT about that and it was considered okay. Or games where older builds have been released, such as how several prerelease copies of Katawa Shoujo exist in fully playable format?

I've also seen a few tropers argue that if it's officially released, then it should be tropeable. For example, deleted scenes on a DVD or Cut Songs on the soundtrack.

Edited by Pichu-kun on Aug 23rd 2019 at 12:01:12 PM

I think there's a fundamental difference between "this part of a published work is unreleased", and "this entire work is unreleased". In the latter case, that unreleased stuff is the work.

I don't think there's a formal convention for troping deleted scenes, except that the example must state that it is from one and not from the released product. I feel like all of that should go in trivia, because for some reason people often insist on treating such content as part of the canonical work, which it is explicitly not (Word of God notwithstanding). Just because people are stupid doesn't mean we have to go along.

As for canceled products, I really think we shouldn't have articles. Once something is no longer going to be released, there's nothing to trope.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 23rd 2019 at 3:16:33 PM

Oh, definitely. I agree with that.

Though my other question still stands; does everything not in the original version fit fully under What Could Have Been? I don't know how broad it should be. Or are their mostly subtropes(I.E. Deleted Scenes).

Use subtropes such as Deleted Scene wherever applicable, of course. That aligns with our rule of using the most specific available trope.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 23rd 2019 at 4:14:55 AM

There is stuff like Missing Trailer Scene for content that was promised but left out, and we have pages for works that had significant material in production or even completed but never officially released like Wonder Woman (2011 pilot).

That's where the line generally is, confirmed, physical material we have to judge. Having a trope page for a theoretical work means it's all in the imagination of the editor, and that's where things will go wrong. There's already enough issues with troping a trailer (pairing two reactions that are obviously not in the same scene), which becomes really dated when the work comes out.

I think cancelled works should be allowed to have pages, and I think trope pages should be able to include examples from deleted scenes. I added the Zootopia back to Racist Grandma before discovering this thread.

Edited by rjd1922 on Jun 26th 2020 at 9:31:22 AM

I'm glad you think so, but that's not our policy. Thanks for contributing.

I know there's cancelled works that fit fine on Darth Wiki.

...Or did I misunderstand where ones like Sonic Xtreme goes? They absolutely have data to work with, like trailers/screenshots, etc. Though screenshots are meh as is.

A problem is that a lot of these often barely have beta artwork and nothing else. These aren't really tropable because we don't see anything in action. It makes sense why that data isn't useful here. Now, it can be under What Could Have Been, but that is only for fully released works and a place to put beta elements(and respectively their subtropes).

Going back to the Frozen example in the OP, I don't see anything wrong with it. The song may not be in the final version of the film, but if it was released on the soundtrack, then it's been released to the public in a tropable form, and the entry text is quite clear that the trope only appears in the Cut Song and not the film proper so there's little chance for confusion.

The only change I'd suggest is making it clear in the entry text that it was released on the soundtrack.

Edited by HighCrate on Aug 24th 2019 at 10:36:48 AM

Cancelled works have been repeatedly discussed and allowed to stay, so I assume you're talking about the second part of my post. Is there an administrivia page establishing that examples cut from the final work aren't allowed on trope pages? I thought the point of this thread was to discuss the policy.

I agree that that should be added back noting it's on the soundtrack.

But do you think they should be allowed on trope pages?

Edited by rjd1922 on Aug 24th 2019 at 2:46:03 PM

Personally I find references to deleted scenes, alternate versions of the work, etc in the main page for works kind of annoying, so I would prefer to have these things under Trivia. But I could see how people might feel differently.

On "We Know Better", the song was released on the soundtrack, but only the first half of the song. The portion that the example mentions wasn't on the soundtrack. Its lyrics are online and are confirmed to be official, but Disney hasn't officially acknowledged them (potentially because it's a bit risque). So, would it still count?

It's not even in the actual work. That'd make it Trivia, as it was meant to be.

The soundtrack is supplementary, but more importantly, the fact it doesn't have the full song there means it's still partially cut. Or in other words, the entry you noted is clearly referring to the cut song. Thus, it doesn't belong on the main page.

How the songs on the CD(which isn't the actual main work itself) are handled is a different factor. Arguably, it would be fine on the main page. Maybe there's something akin to All There in the Manual for other situations like this.

Including supplementary materials like soundtracks, manuals, packaging, advertising, etc. on the main work page is pretty standard procedure.

That said, if the trope doesn't actually appear in the portion of the song that was included in the publicly-released soundtrack, I can see an argument for considering it What Could Have Been and, thus, trivia.

I agree that cut content should go on trivia pages for works. The point of this discussion is to establish whether tropes from What Could Have Been content is allowed on trope pages.

It's not. Those are Trivia only.

What High Crate noted up above were specific things that count as "part of the work". Previous beta content is treated as "not in the final product", which becomes various What Could Have Been and related tropes.

That's the reasoning behind it, mind you.

Could removed elements from concept art be troped? Many are released in art books, so they are officially released.

What do people here mean by putting things in trivia? Should there be a section on the trivia page that says "The deleted scenes contain the following tropes:" and then have a regular trope listing there? That's what it sounds like.

We don't trope What Could Have Been ideas, but something concrete like a Deleted Scene on the DVD I don't see a problem (so long as it's made clear it's a deleted scene in the write-up). It's not much different than troping something unique to the Director's Cut. But trying to trope concept art or Word of God statements about ideas that were tossed around is where our own understanding of it is hypothetical rather than observed.

What about something from interviews? For example, You Are Not My Father once contained an example from a cut Frozen scene that has been discussed by the creators.

That would be Word of God.