Unclear Description: Keet

A continuation of this thread from Ask The Tropers. As rjd1922 asked, What exactly is the distinction between Genki Girl and Keet? According to the Distaff Counterpart page, Keet is for males and Genki Girl is for females, but Genki Girl has a separate section for male examples and two male redirects.

I myself don't really understand the distinction either. Laconic.Genki Girl states that the trope is a "cutesy, hyperactive girl", while Laconic.Keet states "cutesy, hyperactive guy". It's true that Laconic descriptions don't always give the full picture, but in this case it seems to tie into the issue that the two tropes have a bit too much overlap, and/or don't have enough to distinguish themselves from each other.

The main article for Keet does note one significant distinction, in that such characters are somewhat effeminate. However, I've seen several instances of male characters being labelled as Keet who are energetic and cheerful, but not effeminate per say. Which then seems like it would just be a case of a Genki Girl/Boy.

Should Genki Girl and Keet be merged? Or is it simply that a lot of Keet examples are being misused?

A Keet is required to be a very 'kiddy, weak and open' kind of energetic, polar opposite of a Boisterous Bruiser, but usually different from the more generic Genki Guy.

It needs some cleanup, Disagree on a Merge.

Edited by Memers on Nov 11th 2018 at 10:16:30 AM

Most people between this thread and the ATT one have said that Keet is not the Spear Counterpart of Genki Girl, so should that be removed from the Distaff Counterpart page?

A lot of characters in Keet will have to be migrated over to Genki Girl.

So where does Keet end and Genki begin?

Edited by eroock on Nov 12th 2018 at 8:29:30 PM

For reference, here's a thread from 2011 on this same topic.

From what I have seen there are two different definitions of keet:

A. An excitable, childish, and effeminate boy or young man that is used as an Audience Surrogate for female fans.

B. A young, childish sort of boy. Too kiddish to be Hot-Blooded and not mature enough to be a Genki Boy either.

There's a lot of overlap between B and Genki Boy though.

Edited by Pichu-kun on Nov 12th 2018 at 1:05:03 AM

I don't think maturity really plays into it, not only can characters of multiple maturity levels be genki, being genki also seems to come with at least a mild immaturity streak.

I think the girlishness is where Keet lives or dies as a trope.

I was going to say, the definition of Genki in itself sounds like a lot of such characters by design would end up being somewhat childish as well. Even if you have a Genki who's otherwise a mature character, at some level I think "cutesy and excitable" is going to come with a degree of immaturity.

The "effeminate" part of Keet seems like a deeper and more meaningful distinction to me, but I've actually seen more examples of the trope used that don't factor this in.

Edited by StardustSoldier on Nov 12th 2018 at 2:33:59 AM

Is being effeminate the main factor? I've noticed a lot of overlap, like how pre-timeskip Naruto gets pinned as both a keet and a genki boy (despite not being feminine) but his post-timeskip version is just genki.

That's what I'm unclear on. Unless we do end up merging Genki and Keet, then I feel that the effeminacy should be the main factor, as that seems to be the aspect that helps distinguish Keet the most. But I don't know if that actually was the original intent of the trope, and/or if I'm just not understanding it right.

Edited by StardustSoldier on Nov 12th 2018 at 2:56:12 AM

Because if it's not, then there's nothing that really makes it distinct enough from Genki.

Take that Naruto example, since he's not girly or effeminate, all that's really saying is that pre-timeskip Naruto was more energetic than post-timeskip Naruto, but he's Genki either way. Which can be just as easily said by saying he mellowed out when he grew up, but didn't fully lose his energy.

Edited by HarpieSiren on Nov 12th 2018 at 5:43:55 AM

The description to keet has the line: "Keets are often also Genki Guys, as the cute and slightly feminine charm of a keet and the exuberant nature of a genki can go hand in hand quite well, however it's not strictly necessary for a character to be both." This doesn't however specify the difference.

I agree that the feminine and Audience Surrogate examples are what distinguishes the two. Naruto really isn't an example. He's a Shonen protagonist and more of a Class Clown.

All this being said, I think most entries on Keet are misplaced GenkiGuys

Take the Video Game section, going through the characters I'm familiar with...

• Tidus (Final Fantasy X) - Not effeminate
• Zidane (Final Fantasy IX) - Not effeminate
• Bartz (Final Fantasy V) - Not effeminate
• Vaan (Final Fantasy XII) - Not effeminate
• Zack Fair (Final Fantasy VII) - Not effeminate
• Snow Villiers (Final Fantasy XIII) - Not effeminate
• Henry (Fire Emblem Awakening) - Not effeminate
• Pit (Kid Icarus) - Not effeminate
• Sora (Kingdom Hearts) - Not effeminate
• Ventus (Kingdom Hearts) - Not effeminate
• Claus (Mother 3) - Not effeminate
• Mario (Super Mario) - Not effeminate
• Link (Wind Waker) - Not effeminate

Edited by HarpieSiren on Nov 13th 2018 at 12:20:17 PM

These pages have a lot of Zero Context Examples as well, and I find it odd that Keet is split into subpages while Genki Girl isn't.

Edited by rjd1922 on Nov 13th 2018 at 1:02:15 PM

Bartz is like the only one there that would even qualify for being a Genki Guy. Everyone else is rather normal in that department.

To be a Genki Guy or a Keet they need to have ‘hyperactive’ be their default mood and not boisterous since that is a different stereotype. Just having moments of being excited like say Tidus does not make him one.

For FF I would only say Bartz, Gau, Promto, Selphie. FFX-2 Rikku and a Stepford Smiller Vanille would be that. None of them fit the kiddy, inquisitive Parakeet personality sand look for Keet... maybe a Genderflipped Rikku if that existed.

Edited by Memers on Nov 14th 2018 at 3:55:07 AM

Honestly, looking at that list of video game characters, I think a lot of people took Keet to mean "relentlessly cheerful", that explains most of the FF guys, Sora, Mario and Pit's inclusion on the list.

Are Keet characters intended to be more kiddy than Genki characters? That's something I never thought of before.

Kiddy and ‘girly’, commonly with a Blush Sticker and/or a Motor Mouth to ask those Audience Surrogate questions out of the brooding big guy which has a soft spot for him.

‘A can-do, optimistic attitude that just can’t be stopped or cracked’? would be a different trope from this or Genki Girl, I would put very few people into that category though since often the point of the plot is to Break the Cutie.

Edited by Memers on Nov 15th 2018 at 1:02:01 AM

Merge

I think removing the male examples of Genki Girl and redefining Keet as its Spear Counterpart would be a better option than merging them.

Now that I understand the intended meaning of Keet better, I agree that a merge probably isn't necessary, as it's a distinct concept from Genki, even if there is overlap. However, I don't think Genki and Keet should be labelled as spear/distaff counterparts of each other either. While the Genki page consists largely of female examples, it's something that could easily apply to either gender.

Rather, I think the things that define Keet need to be more clearly stated, and a lot of the current Keet examples should either be removed, rewritten, or changed to Genki Boy. But I'm open to suggestions if anyone feels otherwise.

Edited by StardustSoldier on Nov 16th 2018 at 1:19:54 PM

The problem with an expansion or removing the big qualities of a Keet is that people will label every Shonen lead and about 7 people per cast as a 'Genki Guy' as we see here in Keet. It is a heck of a lot more limited than that as well as being a separate character type from being like a Boisterous Bruiser or Hot-Blooded and competitive.

There are a lot of tropes related to the character type are specifically Female only, such as Savvy Guy, Energetic Girl.

An expansion would need to be watched carefully for characters with limitless energy and other features as their DEFAULT mood to the point that those around them expect it but are not overly aggressive or competitive.

Edited by Memers on Nov 16th 2018 at 3:15:58 AM

Also, would ‘A can-do, optimistic attitude that just can’t be stopped or cracked’ be worth looking into as a separate personality trope? That could help with the misuse.

Plucky Girl would be the closest I can find that trope, which itself labels it a Mostly Female trope since guys usually make it MANLY serious to do that.

Edited by Memers on Nov 16th 2018 at 6:06:14 AM