Yeah, all sorts of horrors followed Frank home.
Rather than doublepost, I'm breaking this up with a linebreak to start a new topic: it's kinda funny that the first post-Defenders show was the least connected of all the Netflix shows. Makes you wonder why they don't make even some offhand references to Danny, Luke or Jessica. Or what they would do if they got involved. Or how things in The Punisher would have gone if Matt had survived Midland Circle ('cause there's no way Matt wouldn't sit idly by when Lewis threatened Karen). The cold never bothered me anyway
They tried to make the show as grounded and realistic as possible. Mentioning magical undead ninja cult would have taken away from that.
As for Matt being there during Lewis' attack, I think we've already discussed this. Matt might've easily made the situation worse.
I love my country, I just hate its government
Where are Punisher and Defenders on the Netflix timeline? I thought Punisher happened after Defenders and they were just being quiet about the earthquakes?
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
The Punisher happened after The Defenders. In the second episode, Ellison's holding a newspaper headlined "CHAOS UNDER THE STREETS".
As for the Matt subject, I change my mind. If Matt were still around, there's no way he would stand aside while a madman was threatening Karen. Remember how his first instinct in The Defenders was to move Karen and Foggy to the precinct the moment Sowande threatened the heroes' loved ones. Matt would not have let Lewis hurt Karen - he would have intervened and tried to save her.
Here's what I now think would've happened if Matt were around: he would've sensed Lewis coming a lot sooner because of his heightened senses, so likely, the way things would've gone is that Matt would've gotten Karen out of the room well before Lewis got past the guards, and Matt would be escorting Karen to safety while Frank dealt with Lewis. Lewis would be taking Senator Ori hostage instead, and the bomb defusal thing would've played out slightly differently.
Alternately, if Matt were still around, it's possible Karen wouldn't be in The Punisher at all.
Of course, what we did get of Frank rescuing Karen in the hotel episode was fine. I do appreciate that Karen is not made to be completely helpless in this situation. Like with Wesley, or with the Hand, Karen gets to take an active part in getting herself out of that situation, rather than just passively being rescued. The scene where Frank lets her know which wire to pull to disarm the bomb certainly was nice, and the way they silently communicated, with Lewis not even noticing. But those are the aspects of the Lewis plot resolution that I like as it were.
Everything else about Karen's part in the Lewis storyline is, as I've said before, meh. First off, the radio show and the interview with Senator Ori makes Karen a participant in a shitty excuse of a “debate” about gun control, in which the only person arguing for more regulation is a completely unsympathetic and cliched hypocritical politician. If the show was going to have this conversation at all, is it too much to ask that they do it in a more balanced manner? Bring on Foggy, Luke, Misty, etc. as additional guests. And have Trish Walker be the interviewer instead of this DJ who works at the same radio station that airs Trish Talk. Those are some other voices who have other points of view that would work nicely for the conversation.
On top of that, I'm kinda irked that Karen once AGAIN gets put into a traumatizing, horrible, life-threatening situation, on top of everything else she’s already been through. I personally believe she should already be crippled with PTSD by Wesley's death and the violence she was subjected to over the course of the last few episodes of Daredevil season 2. Does she really need to suffer more on top of her grieving over Matt's apparent death? Sure, it makes sense that Karen's past and present activities could be what got Lewis's attention drawn to her. But honestly, as I said before, that entire plot thread was nothing but a plot device to motivate Frank.
Think about it. When Frank hears Lewis threaten Karen on the radio, he completely drops his whole crusade against Rawlins—the main plot of the show-for two entire episodes, to go after Lewis. I'm sure Lewis could've been tied into the main story through something other than a woman-in-jeopardy story. It honestly feels like…well, is it "fridging" if the woman doesn’t die? I'll assume it is, but maybe it's not. The point is, Karen was made to suffer just to give Frank a compelling enough reason that he would risk everything to go on this sidequest. As if Frank's and Lewis's mutual association with Curtis wasn't enough to do the trick.
edited 7th Feb '18 6:18:46 PM by dmcreif
The cold never bothered me anyway
Colonel Bennett's interactions with Russo do say a lot about him [Bennett] and Rawlins. When Bennett is raving to Russo and Rawlins about them not telling him that Frank was coming for him, Russo quips, "You know, without us, Frank Castle would have your balls wired to a car battery by now. You'd probably love that though, would you?"
While Russo turns it into a snide remark about Bennett's BDSM preferences, the first part of his remark is him essentially calling out Bennett for being one of those lazy and inept guys who defines a soldier's worth by his rank. In professions like the military and law enforcement, when you get to the rank of Major or higher, you stop being a foot soldier and start becoming a 'manager' and politician. Someone more invested in advancing their career getting their oak clusters, eagle, or five stars, rather than in doing their job correctly. This is also applicable to Rawlins at some level, because here he is, focused on burying his dirt so he can advance his career.
Speaking of Rawlins, how much of his crusade against Frank is in the name of covering up Cerberus, and how much of it is purely just petty revenge over losing his eye? I'm actually starting to think, as Russo suspected around episode 7, it was 100% petty revenge over the eye, and the "covering up Cerberus" was just a lie Rawlins said to Russo and others because he's too cowardly to admit the real reasons why he wants Frank dead. Especially given the way Rawlins loses his shit when he's told by Marion in no uncertain terms that he's done in the CIA. In fact, that idea that it was all over a milky eye, makes perfect sense because you know, people kill each other all the time over the stupidest of stuff. Gunning down a man and his entire family because the man made you experience fear for your life? That's no different from say, bashing a man's head in with a car door and then blowing up a bunch of buildings in Hell's Kitchen because the man interrupted your date, or bludgeoning your assistant to death with an ice cream scoop because he asked for vanilla, or impaling and decapitating your keeper just because she doesn't know your vigilante ex-boyfriend's real identity.
The cold never bothered me anyway
- Actually, it could be argued thar Rawlins' petty grudge is worse. Papa Meachum was going crazy due to supernatural reasons; Alexandra was murdered because she threatened both Elektra and Matt. Rawlins had no such excuse.
Rawlins' petty grudge is also worse in just how many people are affected by it.
The cold never bothered me anyway
In addition, Rawlins doesn't need more money, seeing as he was born from old Virginia money. He clearly was doing this For the Evulz.
edited 9th Feb '18 10:35:10 AM by dmcreif
The cold never bothered me anyway
Casting rumors
are starting to fly around that season 2 may adapt elements of the Slavers storyline from Punisher MAX.
And filming might be starting soon on season 2, given Jason R. Moore recently Tweeted, "Throwback because it’s nearly about that time! #The Punisher" Also, from some people with industry connections I interact with Reddit, apparently Jon Bernthal and Steve Lightfoot were at doing weapons stuff a couple weeks ago, and Amber Rose Revah and Ben Barnes are already in New York City, probably getting ready for shooting.
Of course, it probably won't be until late March / early April that they begin shooting on The Punisher season 2. Obviously, the season has been in active development for a while and the plans were already being made even before the official S2 announcement was made, even before the first trailer for The Punisher season 1 came out. But they'll have to wait for Daredevil (2015) season 3 and Iron Fist (2017) season 2 to wrap before they begin The Punisher shooting. Daredevil and Iron Fist are both planning on wrapping around the start of April, and a lot of the crew usually work across multiple shows.
There's also one thing that might dictate a 'necessary' wait to begin shooting: if they're going to feature Karen in The Punisher season 2, they'll probably have to wait for Deborah Ann Woll to wrap filming on Daredevil. (And before anyone says it, yes, I know Deborah Ann Woll did do double duty filming The Punisher season 1 and The Defenders simultaneously, but across those two shows, Karen was basically an Advertised Extra. On Daredevil, she is the female co-protagonist and thus has more screentime and work. And probably has downtime mandated in her contract anyways)
The cold never bothered me anyway
UPDATE: Now it seems that they might be starting shooting on The Punisher at the end of this month, wrapping in July. I'm guessing this means that The Punisher will continue to exist in a separate sphere from the rest of the Netflix shows, seeing as Daredevil and Iron Fist are still shooting.
The cold never bothered me anyway
Three new cast members confirmed for season 2
Literal trailer.
Anyone want to comment on how Frank and Russo have swapped hairstyles?
Now that season 1 is over, I'm assuming Frank will be taking on some much more normal criminals at this point in time.
See, there's one thing that's pretty noticeable about The Punisher season 1: it's yet another origin story, after Frank already had an origin story with Daredevil season 2. His origins as the Punisher were perfect. Frank burned his house and memories to the ground and walks off wearing The Skull. This is shortly after Karen had given him the ultimatum of not killing the Blacksmith, told that if he does so he is "dead to me", at which point Frank replies that he already is dead.
That sends a pretty damned clear message. But that got completely unraveled just to rehash the origin story for a very obvious reason: origin stories are really easy to write. That and taking away from Frank's violent nature to make him more likeable, though I suppose that was necessary since he's the main character of this show as opposed to a supporting character as was the case with his appearance on Daredevil.
Still, they redeemed themselves toward the end of this first batch of episodes. The end of the season has effectively destroyed the last remaining nuggets of faith Frank may have had left in human systems: the law (ineffective), the military-industrial complex (corrupt and evil), trust (Billy Russo's betrayal) and finally, being a person at all (when David gives him the chance to join him at the dinner table, a thought Frank's mind played with in a PTSD dream in an earlier episode, and he seems quite resolved that he cannot engage).
The Punisher season 1 makes sense if Daredevil season 2 is considered "the birth of the Punisher and death of Frank", and The Punisher season 1 is "Frank lets go of whatever good may have been left in his soul". This is actually a bit of a beautiful arc for him outside of some sore spots.
The cold never bothered me anyway
And no, he doesn't "let go of whatever good may have been left in his soul". He still cares about people. He apologizes to Dinah for inconveniencing her family, he still cares about the Liebermans, he cares about Curtis, he clearly worries about those kids Billy took hostages. Hell, he stays to watch over Dinah at the end, knowing full well that it'll get him arrested.
I'd actually say "The Punisher" somewhat undoes "the birth of the Punisher and death of Frank": we don't see Frank-the-killing-machine who only cares about killing criminals, we see Frank-the-person who is still able to form emotional connections, who is willing to risk his life for random strangers, who is willing to give his trust to people he barely knows, who is trying to move on from what happened to his family (he lets go of Maria's hand in his hallucination stating that he is home, he goes to the support group trying to overcome his PTSD).
I love my country, I just hate its government
I do say though, I do think season 2 will go progressively darker and see Frank lose his attachments to humanity.
I mean, he's like Lewis and the other veterans in Curtis'sl group: he's looking for a purpose.
Speaking of Curtis, Jason R. Moore has revealed on his Twitter page how the effect of Curtis's missing leg is achieved: a long green sock.
The cold never bothered me anyway
Corbin Benson and Annette O'Toole have been added to the cast since I last posted. They'll be playing a rich couple who might have ties to the new Billy Russo.
Also, Royce Johnson will be reprising his role as Brett Mahoney
◊, so this means he'll survive Daredevil season 3.
Hi Mrs Kent. How's Clark these days?
Foreign Troper
Heh, Maggie Sawyer will be joining the cast then 
Nice. Like the actress.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Love is Love is Love
It's been mentioned, but it really doesn't help the idea that Punisher is the Fascist Strongman's fantasy when the only person who says "Hey, maybe less guns is good" is a limp-dick politician who parrots strawman talking points that no serious advocate talks about and has no reasonable policies.
My various fanfics.
Foreign Troper
Well, but at the same time the pro NRA guys are also presented in a bad light. One is a racist Phony Veteran, the other one is a mentally unstable murderer.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Except that neither character is really connected to the NRA and one of them plays into the idea that mental instability and not guns are the problem
Foreign Troper
Well O'Connor wore an NRA cap and both were handing out Pro 2nd Amendment flyers.
But if you wanna be this exact, Frank isn't 'connected' to the NRA either ^^
Edited by Forenperser on Nov 17th 2018 at 6:13:21 PM
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Love is Love is Love
But at the same time, Karen is at least partially pro-gun and seems to exist to make the Anti-gun guy look like an asshole, and even though this Frank Castle is the softest version of Frank Castle that's ever been presented to us, he still very much prefers guns to not guns.
My various fanfics.
Frank also described a story to Karen about the time he came home and saw his son had painted a mural of a marine over a wall in their home. When Frank scolded him for it, the boy's response was that he did it to "protect our girls".
It sounds sweet at first until you remember how a common element of racism and xenophobia is "they're coming to rape our women". I can't say that is quite what the scene was trying to imply and it really could be read as totally innocent but given the implications that Frank was bringing his work home in a bad way...