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Aliens outlaws and the Prime Directive

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Worlder What? Since: Jan, 2001
What?
#1: Apr 8th 2017 at 7:45:22 PM

Before I wrote this post, I did my best to read up on the Trope Namer on the Star Trek wiki.

Basically, I'm trying to reconcile these two elements of my story: Earth having a history of being invaded by criminals from beyond the stars and Earth's newly crown emperor drawing the ire of a UFP-expy (let's call it the League of Interstellar States or simply the League) for playing Prometheus to dozens of lesser alien civilizations.

I see a discrepancy in the fact that the League is so quick to condemn the Emperor's actions yet they've seemingly allow bandits and slavers to ransack the Earth multiple times in the past.

I could address this by having the Emperor call them out on their inaction, but then again he is the main antagonist and I don't want the audience to be too attached.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#2: Apr 8th 2017 at 9:18:28 PM

The condemnation apparently wasn't that quick if Earth's uplifted list is already in the double digits. If that's a habitual defect, then maybe the League was just slow to deal with the invasion problem.

Worlder What? Since: Jan, 2001
What?
#3: Apr 8th 2017 at 10:47:39 PM

[up] Okay maybe not literally dozens, perhaps... eight?

What matters is that the Emperor is looking to provide the protection (for Earth primarily and to a lesser extent its neighbors) that the League is unwilling or unable to provide. Even if means support the occasional coup now and then.

The Emperor wants to protect Earth. He recognizes that the best way to do so is to make allies. One good way to make allies is to accelerate the technological and economical development of lesser civilizations. While this may lead to strife for the other civilization, it is seen as a small price to pay for Earth's wellbeing.

EDIT: Changed some things.

edited 9th Apr '17 12:10:32 AM by Worlder

ilili GlUtToNoUs GiT from An AtTiC iN aUsTrIa Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
GlUtToNoUs GiT
#4: Apr 9th 2017 at 6:18:23 AM

Perhaps the League simply places a higher priority on preventing Uplifting than some good ol' ransacking, they could be Lawful like that. Granted, the potential dangers of Uplifting (intergalactic war usw.) are arguably more dangerous for the big-picture than the raiding of one puny planet.

That said, if I were the Emperor I'd call bullshit on that reasoning and keep doing what I feel I have to do to protect my planet. Wouldn't exactly paint him in an antagonistic light, though.

FeEeEeEeEeD mEeEeEeEeE mY bLoG
indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#5: Apr 12th 2017 at 2:57:42 AM

Yeah, the Emperor feels like a hero antagonist or at least an anti-villain so far. The League essentially enforces restrictions without offering compensation, which is actually closer to how real life imperialism works. Moreover, is is likely that the candidate worlds would themselves be in less danger from space pirates if they were uplifted, and, as it also happens in real life, would have a better chance to gain independence in their own right.

All things considered, unless the League burdens itself with protecting Earth - for instance, by offering advanced defense technology - it has no sway in regulating how Earth defends itself.


The central flaw of the Prime Directive, even in the trope namer, is that it means nothing to states that choose not to follow it - everyone but the Federation is free to colonize and exploit populated worlds at leisure, making it a self-imposed challenge on the Feds' part, likely to even cause more harm as the Federation might offer a better deal to its protectorates.

(Really, coupled with the similar cloaking restrictions, it seems the Feds could seriously use a better legal department.)

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#6: Apr 13th 2017 at 5:12:29 PM

Unless the League is in a position to constantly put itself between other interstellar nations and the un-uplifted species, something like the British patrolling off of Africa for slave ships.

Problem with that is the story so far, concerning alien raiders coming to Earth and Earth's own adventuring indicates they don't have either the political influence or military capabilities to enforce that.

Maybe at the time of the raider attacks the League lacked the power to do anything beyond send a strongly worded letter, so it looked to Earth like they would never put their money where their mouth is. Then in the present, with Earth apparently setting up satellite states to buffer itself from outside attack, the League finally does have the means and will to confront anyone going against their rules.

To Earth it looks like a double standard. But from the League's perspective, Earth is cultivating an empire with the intention to resist League laws.

DeusDenuo Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#7: Apr 14th 2017 at 12:19:57 AM

...being an extraterrestrial cattle rustler/burglar and starting an intergalactic Empire aren't equivalent. Comparing them would be an appeal to hypocrisy at best and "whataboutism" at worst.

I don't think the discrepancy is in the story, so much as the eye of the beholder.

indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#8: Apr 14th 2017 at 1:05:16 AM

The terms used were ransacking and invasion - not exactly the pastime of your friendly neighborhood cattle-stealing aliens. Unless the League is able and inclined to offer its own defense solution, it has no business demanding compliance.

[up][up] It could be an interesting spin if the League is indeed able and willing to help at the time of the story but not before, so tension is based around whether its past weakness can be ignored for a better future. The Emperor is the distrustful traditionalist more inclined to look for local solutions - and considering the background of the story, he at the very least has a point - while the protagonist faction takes the globalist approach, sacrificing political influence for long-term stability.

Izeinsummer Since: Jan, 2015
#9: Apr 14th 2017 at 7:27:48 AM

Eh, just make the league response "Slow but sure". Earth didnt get turned into someones personal playground -which would not have been difficult for a higher-tech filibuster to do for almost all of earth history. So it could be a situation where every raider and slaver that hit earth did eventually get consigned to a prison asteroid. That shouldnt strain credibility, justice is usually reactive.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#10: Apr 14th 2017 at 6:25:43 PM

"The terms used were ransacking and invasion - not exactly the pastime of your friendly neighborhood cattle-stealing aliens."

On that note, it would be highly amusing if this interstellar conflict could be avoided if the League reimbursed Earth for all the stolen cows.

indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#11: Apr 14th 2017 at 9:52:06 PM

It would truly be an act of bovine intervention. Or if the League could actually manufacture clone replacements, a genuine Taurus ex Machina.

Worlder What? Since: Jan, 2001
What?
#12: Apr 14th 2017 at 10:23:17 PM

[up][up][up] About the protagonists.

They see the Emperor as leading humanity down a dark path. A path where humanity becomes the very thing it once fought: an alien invader.

Sure the Emperor likes to use the diplomatic approach since that is how he consolidated Earth in the first place. But what happens when a civilization that sits on a strategic resource or location fails to respond to charitable trade deals? Well, say hello to your new puppet government or separatist movement.

Still that's pretty tame compared to what the Emperor would do to those that have aggressed Earth in the past. Pillagers and vandals will be forced into prison labor producing goods until they've paid off the price tag of their crime and then some. Slavers will be torn apart by former slaves. Poachers (think Predator) will themselves be turned into hunting trophies. Finally, any Wretched Hive will be subjected to a military occupation until the world is thoroughly cleansed of it's filth.

edited 14th Apr '17 10:23:33 PM by Worlder

indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#13: Apr 14th 2017 at 11:12:11 PM

Not exactly seeing a downside here. Sure, it seems like one of those cycle-of-revenge deals, but so far, the proposed alternative is even less appealing. Say the Empire ceases and reverts all colonization activities. And Then What?? Do the raids stop as well? Does the League offer a defense solution, an economic boost, or otherwise anything to compensate its compliant constituents? If not, its own attitude can easily be taken as imperialistic itself, trying to legislate against the appearance of potential rivals.

edited 14th Apr '17 11:14:48 PM by indiana404

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#14: Apr 15th 2017 at 7:47:32 AM

I do draw a line at forcibly making a world a part of your sphere of influence when it hasn't done anything wrong. No matter what the justification that's still blatant imperialism. Honestly, you don't even need a Prime Directive to have the League call Earth out on that. Maybe it's a hallow protest consisting their past unwillingess or inability to help Earth buts it isn't without good reason and cause for concern.

And on Indiana's line of thought, what about those uplifted planets if Earth stops its expansion? Do they get any protection from alien hordes out plunder and enslave? Is the League replacing a tyrant only to leave a void where other villains can come waltzing in?

edited 15th Apr '17 7:52:23 AM by Parable

Worlder What? Since: Jan, 2001
What?
#15: Apr 15th 2017 at 10:33:14 AM

@13 and @14

The protagonists seek to broker a deal between the League and any other galactic powers whereby the protagonists offer to oust the Emperor themselves in exchange for a period of protection from any invaders from entering the Sol system.

The flip-side is that should the protagonists fail, the League will give the go ahead for its military to dismantle the Empire satellite states and colonies.

As for the uplifted worlds, they have been uplifted to varying degrees depending on the date of contact, pre-existing development, and amount of resources devoted towards further development. Some might be able to maintain its planetary defenses indefinitely, while others lack such technological or industrial capability and be at mercy of the marauders once its defenses fail completely.

indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#16: Apr 15th 2017 at 11:31:40 AM

Okay, that makes sense. Still feels a bit too close to hypocritical strong-arming if the League has only just gotten powerful or decisive enough to act, and the first thing it does is go after the civilizations not keen on waiting for it. It might be a good idea to show a couple of preliminary strikes against the pirates themselves, as demonstration of its willingness to keep its end of the bargain.

Mind you, coming from a Warsaw pact nation, the idea of replacing the influence of the Soviet Union with the defense deals of NATO and the like wasn't exactly celebrated round here. It would be an interesting spin if the Empire's colonies are already so culturally integrated that they prefer it to the League. Kinda like how India and some African countries chose English as their official language rather than hassle with dozens of local dialects.

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