Greater Scope Villain- Possible Ambiguity

Well firstly, I'd like to say hello again to the folks here. Doubt you missed me, but I'm glad to once again become a contributor to this fascinating wiki. I've changed a lot in the time I've been gone, and thus you shouldn't really take my past posts as a guide as to how I'll be now, at least in controversial matters.

Secondly, I would just like to say that I love the Bigger Bad (yes, I know it's been renamed and understand why, but to me it's more personally evocative) trope. I've loved it years before I ever came across this wiki, and I'm very glad to see it have a place here. Only regret to me is that I didn't come up with it first

Thirdly, I've not often used the forums and it's been years since I've participated on the site at all, so forgive me if I'm erring after a basic read-up of some of the relevant rules.

Anyway, to the issue.

The way Greater-Scope Villain is defined and the way it's used seem to be at odds with one another. The basic idea of the description (it's usage is what is personally evocative, but that's just trivia to you folks) is a villain who is more powerful or operates on a greater scope than the Big Bad, but isn't directly involved in the plot. This might be hair-splitting, but I can see three usages running through;

1: The "classic" definition. I.e. The Big Bad of the story is Lord Bad, ruler of the dark land of Heelstan, but there is another, unrelated villain not involved in the main plot, Emperor Evulz, who rules over the Empire of Sin. While this is how the trope is defined, to some extent this seems to be plain trivial (is it really a trope that Darkseid exists in the same universe as Lex Luthor, for example), and I'll admit, not very evocative (not that that matters for these purposes)

2: The "catalyst" definition. This villain is in some way responsible for the main plot, but is not direclty involved in it. So, for example, Lord Bad's father, Lord Nefarious, was an Abusive Parent and is to some extent responsible for Lord Bad becoming the Big Bad or a villain to begin with. These seems to be the main usage (and my personal favorite), as opposed to the way the trope is defined, but I can see one (other) major issue with it; is it really always the case that the "catalyst" villain is of a greater scope than the Big Bad?

I mean, let's take a mob boss called Don Giovanni. When he was a young man, his controlling mother emotionally and financially abused him, causing him to take up a life of crime. Several examples seem to use the trope this way, but is Don Giovanni's mother really operating on a larger scale than her son? She only threatens those around her; he threatens a whole city.

There's a similar kind of example which is closer in some ways to Predecessor Villain, where the alleged Greater Scope V Illain is of equal scope to the Big Bad. Let's say Lord Bad succeeded his father, Lord Malice, the previous ruler of Heelstan. Is there really a difference in scope here?

3: The "unfought Big Bad". Let's say that there's an African dictator called General Mutumbo, and he ultimately answers to a consortium of American businessmen. In some cases, the consortium would be a Greater-Scope Villain, but in others, where they actually give orders to General Mutumbo that directly impact the plot, isn't it more the case that they are a Big Bad that the hero never fights and General Mutumbo is The Dragon (or some other kind of subordinate entity, depending on the power difference and organisational structure)?

I might be splitting hairs here, but I'm almost inclined to think this trope either needs to be expanded to encompass all these definitions (maybe as a Super-Trope), or rewritten to only encompass some of them, with the remainder possibly being spun off as new tropes.

edited 5th Oct '15 8:54:49 AM by Praetyre

The "catalyst" is misuse and is a result of the old name, Bigger Bad. The number 3, as you said, sometimes is an example of Greater-Scope Villain, and sometimes is an example of Big Bad. It depends on the work, that's the point.

In defining Greater-Scope Villain, it is necessary to first understand the definition of Big Bad, since they are closely related concepts.

The Big Bad is the primary driver of the conflict in the story, embodied in an individual — or extremely rarely, a group. The Big Bad must be defeated by the protagonists in order to resolve that conflict. In a single story, identifying the Big Bad is typically very easy. The problem with the trope is how it applies in serial works.

In Monster of the Week type works, the Big Bad is not the latest evildoer to be beaten by the heroes; rather, it's the villain who is calling the shots and sending all those monsters (or at least taking advantage of their presence to advance their own plans). Usually there will be a Story Arc that lasts for an entire season, the conclusion to which involves taking down the Big Bad. The Big Bad may be revealed at the very beginning or it may take a while for the protagonists to figure out who it is.

In such stories, after the Big Bad is finally vanquished, we'll cut to some other, nastier dude who says, "They may have defeated Prince Evil, but they haven't seen what I can do yet," as a setup for the next season. That guy is the Greater-Scope Villain for season one and the Big Bad for season two.

In some serial works, Monster of the Week episodes will alternate with episodes where the Big Bad or The Dragon takes the forefront and drives the conflict. We know this to be the case because the villain in question is not decisively beaten — in rare cases they'll be captured, but break out shortly thereafter.

To be a Greater-Scope Villain, a character or organization must:

• Be stronger or possessed of greater capability for evil than the Big Bad of the current major story arc.
• Be in charge of or directing said Big Bad, even if it's just to take advantage of the mayhem they cause.
  • Rarely, the Greater-Scope Villain will be a threat that the current Big Bad is themselves fighting or preparing to fight. Defeating the Big Bad forces the heroes to deal with this greater threat in the next season.
• Not be directly involved in the main story arc.

It is not necessary that they show up for the next season or story arc to become the Big Bad, but they almost always do unless the work is canceled or left hanging, or unless they send a series of Big Bads to fight the heroes in each subsequent season, up until a concluding arc when the heroes have to finally take them down.

What is not a Greater-Scope Villain:

• The Big Bad of the current arc, relative to The Dragon. (Palpatine is the Big Bad of the entire Star Wars franchise. Vader is his Dragon. At no point is Vader the Big Bad. There is some argument that Tarkin is the Big Bad for the first film, but that only applies if you view it as a distinct work separate from the series as a whole. In context, it's clear that the ending of A New Hope is merely part of a bigger conflict.)
• The motivation for the Big Bad, or the person who trained them or gives them "moral" support. Lord Evil's grandmother is not a Greater-Scope Villain unless she's the one secretly running the evil organization and training lots of Evil Lords to go out and conquer the world.

edited 5th Oct '15 7:16:52 PM by Fighteer

The "catalyst" and "unfought big bad" are, in general, not examples of the trope. Part of the reason behind the rename and redefinition of the trope from Bigger Bad is that there were examples of bad guys who are technically the origin of bad things happening in the story but are not some sort of higher level of evil or power. Like, for example, abusive parents forming the monster the heroes have to face now. Child abuse is horrible, but their impact on the story is limited exclusively to the threat of the Big Bad, they are not a cause for concern once the Big Bad is defeated.

The truest definition is the first one, a Big Bad shown to be just one part of an organization of similarly dangerous individuals. Thus while the heroes are fighting one bad guy, there is something even worse lurking behind them.

And everything has to be treated within the scope of the individual story. Darkseid is indeed powerful, but just because he exists in the DCU doesn't mean he is a Greater-Scope Villain of every single DCU story. There may be individual examples of a "catalyst" and "unfought big bad" that fit the trope, but it is very specific circumstances (the Greater-Scope Villain could be the one who provided the big bad their skill, power or resources, but were otherwise not included on the scheme).

Sorry for necro, but I figured this'd fit; I'm currently engaged in a cleanup of Greater-Scope Villain to eliminate "Motivated the villains involved with the plot", Predecessor Villain and Villainous Legacy examples. Feel free to help.

So 1 and 3 are pretty much covered.

What trope would fit definition 2, then?

So 1 and 3 are pretty much covered.

What trope would fit definition 2, then?

The Unfought and/or Non-Action Big Bad.

Also, that double post delay.