Misused: Ensemble Darkhorse

This trope is an absolute mess. It has a lot of misuse. There are two major kinds of misuse I'm seeing:

1. Character is too major too be considered an ensemble darkhorse. This one people (sometimes) clean up, but I still see a lot of misuse.

2. Every character is considered an ensemble darkhorse. Ensemble Darkhorse is reserved for the top of the crop, the few that stand out above the rest. Just because a character has a small fanbase does not make that character an ensemble darkhorse, the character must show popularity above the rest of the characters to be considered one. Also, if a character has a sizable Hatedom, then the character is a Base Breaker rather than this. A character has to be popular with the vast majority of the fanbase to be eligible for this.

All of the subpages are pretty bad. A great example of everything misused with this trope is the Super Smash Bros. Page.

This is one of those that gets entry pimped into uselessness honestly.

That Smash page should be cut wholesale, as just about every character listed is playable (and thus too "major" to qualify).

Also, I question I've been meaning to ask. If an Ensemble Dark Horse becomes a Breakout Character, do they no longer qualify for Ensemble Dark Horse due to becoming a major character? If yes, then I think a ton of examples would need to be cut because I can guarantee a good chunk of E Ds have been promoted to being a main character.

The problem is the name

Googling the definition gives me this

People think that if there is a 'not main character' standout in the Ensemble Cast then that would be this trope.

But this trope is Minor Character Standout and has nothing to do with a ensemble.

Smash is a good example of an Ensemble Cast and thus not this trope.

edited 4th Aug '15 1:50:48 PM by Memers

Old thread, several years ago. Result was to clean it up.

I've on occasion cleaned out Ensemble Dark Horse who were main characters, or just not more popular than their role would imply. Definitely a big problem here.

I think the description should be clarified to be about characters who're far more popular than their weight in the work would imply, rather than just "unexpectedly popular" (which by the way is sinkholed Popularity Power). This is something like a secondary character becomes the most popular character, or a bit character who becomes at least as popular as the main cast. Actually that popular, not just getting a bunch of fans (since for any sufficiently large fandom, just about any character can get a noticeable amount of fans).

Regardless of what's done here, other than plain cutting it, this trope would probably need its own cleaup thread, like The Scrappy and Complete Monster.

Yeah, this trope needs cleanup. Maybe there's some way to fix it to avoid further misuse?

E.g. from the Comic Book page:

• Obadiah Stane is pretty much one of Iron Man's most dangerous foes. He was a great chessmaster villain who was behind the one most notable story arc in Iron Man's entire history. And it's Iron Man, who isn't really known to have memorable villains anyway, among them Stane is pretty notable. How the hell is he an "Ensemble Darkhorse"?
• Verity Willis isn't an example, until she somehow manages to outshine Loki.
• Carol Danvers. She of course had a following even back in the day, but was that following bigger than what could be expected for a long-time Avenger? Her rise to prominence in the recent decade or so was an editorial decision. She was given an important role in Marvel's 2000s events, which gave her more publicity, and thus more fans. If anyone could be called an Ensemble Dark Horse, it's Kamala Khan who inherited Carol's Ms Marvel mantle. She became so popular, she quickly outsold Carol's Captain Marvell title, and now, just a year later, she's already in the Avengers.
• The Runaways — how can there be "a group of Ensemble Dark Horses"? That doesn't make sense.
• Storm from X Men was always supposed to be one of the main characters of the Claremont and post-Claremont era. And she is exactly that, and gets exactly the appropriate amount of love from fans and writers, not more, not less. She didn't become a Wolverine.
• Batwoman is a ZCE, and I'm not sure she fits this trope really.
• Static is kind of an opposite Ensemble Dark Horse: DC took an interesting character and pretty much shoved him into obscurity. Of course Static still has fans who have read his original series or have seen the cartoon. The point is, he became a "side character" (in the DC universe) after he already got a fanbase.
• How is Archie's Jughead an Ensemble Darkhorse? He's pretty much supposed to be the #3 in the whole cast (Betty and Veronica sharing the #2 spot). He didn't become more popular than Archie or the girls, so he's exactly where he's meant to be.

One thing that might help is if we create a separate trope that describes a generally popular character.

No. Just... No. That is not a trope, it would be just a mess of gushing for main characters or just random character an editor likes.

This needs a rename to specify that its a minor character that is far more popular than expected. So minor that they cant even be in the credits.

There has been talk about a Fan Favourite trope as a supertrope, but that's as far as I understand it would've been a trope for only the most popular character. And if that were a lesser character, it would also be an Ensemble Dark Horse.

I don't think the character needs to be that minor. The important part is that they have a popularity that goes far beyond what you'd expect a character of that weight. And that's in relation to other characters, so even if a minor character is super popular, it's not an example if other characters are also super popular.

Yeah, this character doesn't need to be very minor. The important part is that they get more popularity than characters with more prominent roles. E.g. a secondary character outshining the protagonist could also be this trope.

Also, as I've mentioned in the Breakout Character TRS thread, I have a possibly heretical idea.

How about we merge Breakout Character and Ensemble Dark Horse? The reason is that the main symptom of being an Ensemble Dark Horse is... becoming a Breakout Character. That's because the companies and creators usually listen to their audience, and if a character becomes unexpectedly popular, they usually try to cash in on that. So why not just merge the two? Thoughts?

edited 5th Aug '15 4:31:22 AM by Rjinswand

Regardless of what happens, I've cutlist the Super Smash Bros page.

Yeah, I support that.

An Ensemble Dark Horse might not become a Breakout Character as not every series milks their characters like or gets cancelled in general.

Heck they might die.

edited 6th Aug '15 5:49:49 PM by Memers

As I already said in the Breakout Character TRS thread, I agree, that is true. What I would suggest is to limit Ensemble Dark Horse only to those examples that don't become a Breakout Character/Ascended Extra.

edited 7th Aug '15 6:33:49 AM by Rjinswand

I agree with this criteria.

Just as a reminder, folks: When cutlisting a page per a forum thread discussion, please link to it in the cut request. I did decline the cut request on EnsembleDarkhorse.Super Smash Bros for that reason this morning.

The cleanup project thread for Ensemble Dark Horse in Long Term Projects has recently been resurrected: link.

If we have a Long Term Project for the trope, does this need to remain open?

Yeah, close this thread and move its discussion to that thread.

edited 31st Dec '15 12:59:44 PM by Lymantria

OK, closing this then.