Teen Titans (2003)

Of course he was. That's why we got all the scenes of him taunting and/or engaging the Titans and Robin specifically in the first place - especially in the first season. Most of his latter appearances subsequently ride on the idea that he's already been established as the show's Big Bad (which... yeah), especially his role in the second season and episodes like Haunted.

Also, definition wise, a character who isn't supposed to be pushing the plot along isn't a Big Bad, because being the villain creates and manipulates the plot is an essential part of the Big Bad job description.

edited 27th Aug '15 2:07:10 PM by KnownUnknown

As the Big Bad, he's supposed to. Since he didn't that's the issue.

Most of the taunting and engaging that came from Slade was all part of the actual main plot-line of the first season: Robin fixation on him. That's what all the major episodes we're about.

And there are other ways you can make a character a Big Bad.

It isn't a one way street on how a BigBad is written.

edited 27th Aug '15 2:25:57 PM by AnimatedDreamer

If a character isn't controlling the plot, they're not a Big Bad. Again, it's an essential part of the definition. If they're a villain, and they're not doing that at least in part, then there are a whole host of other Villain Tropes that that could otherwise apply to them.

If a character is intended to be a Big Bad, but does a poor job of controlling the plot, then they're doing a poor job of being a Big Bad. If that's unintentional, as is the case with Slade, then the writers did a poor job of making them a Big Bad (if it's intentional, that's when you get stuff like Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain).

edited 27th Aug '15 2:28:21 PM by KnownUnknown

Not really.

That's also not what Tropes Are Tools means.

edited 27th Aug '15 2:30:24 PM by KnownUnknown

You're saying that Slade a bad villain because he doesn't follow your defintion of Big Bad.

Tropes Are Tools isn't something that means "a trope can be whatever I want as long as I finagle it." It means that tropes are neither inherently good nor inherently bad things, reflections of our ideologies and perceptions, and an essential part of the creative process.

Tropes have definitions, which is why they're usable as tools in the first place. When applies to something like Big Bad, Tropes Are Tools could be used to explain why having a Big Bad works or might be necessary as a concept in the first place, or in the case of a Big Bad with Values Dissonance why that isn't necessarily a bad thing, etc.

At the very least, you seem to be mistaking it for Playing with a Trope, which doesn't necessarily apply here either. Unless you want to make the case that Slade is an example of Big Bad that's being "played with," which he isn't - he's a very blatantly straightforward example of the trope that just isn't written well.

edited 27th Aug '15 2:33:59 PM by KnownUnknown

Yeah, I really don't see how Slade fails judging by this Laconic for Big Bad.

The best definition we have for Big Bad comes from the trope page, btw:

edited 27th Aug '15 2:35:35 PM by KnownUnknown

I don't get what's being defended here Animated Dreamer. Not everyone here is saying Slade's a bad villain, we just think he made a poor Big Bad.

I'm just voicing my disagreement. I'm not trying to make it a heated debate or anything.

If it is starting too become too much I'll just agree to disagree then.

edited 27th Aug '15 2:46:44 PM by AnimatedDreamer

Why do you say Slade wasn't controlling the plot? During Seasons 1 and 2, pretty much everything that happens during the Story Arc episodes is part of Slade's master plan, which the Titans are only able to foil in the last few minutes of the season.

I...really don't see how he doesn't fit that definition.

He fits the definition, it just the Big Bad role doesn't suit him well. Slade/Deathstroke is one of those characters who best suit the role of recurring villain rather then major threat. Its like Batroc the Leaper from Marvel Comics: as a major villain he sucks at it and nobody remembers it but as a hired gun sent to do the greater villain's dirty work, he is fucking awesome at what he does. Slade seems better off being the one hired by Brother Blood's HIVE sent to ki-eh I mean destroy the Titans and develop an obsession with Robin because he reminds him of a younger Slade and wants an heir after failing to get his son Jericho to join him (which I wish they explored in the show early on in that final season as a good introduction to Jericho in the show who just appear as a part of the team with no dramatic reveal of his bloodline).

edited 28th Aug '15 7:33:22 AM by BigK1337

I'll drink to that.

Non-alchoholic, that is.

I'd say Slade is versatile enough to fit both roles.

He can if done right. Case in point when done right: Arrow Season Two. Case in point when not done right (as one or possibly many tropers previously pointed out): Son of Batman.

The impression I got from Slade in the cartoon was that he's been doing the supervillain mastermind thing for a while, but what we see of him in the series is him putting more arch goals of power and conquest on the backburner, instead focusing on more personal ambitions that happen to involve the Titans.

Yeah I think that was the intended impression I gain from watching him. But looking back I question why he decided to put aside his goals just to mess with a new super hero team?

So far his criminal empire is doing fine and the heroes do not know who he is and doesn't really care as they will focus on fighting the Villain of the Week. If anything, he can just be like David Xanatos and commit his crimes from the shadow without provoking the Titans in a way that it becomes a personal vendetta against him. And so far, he seems to be Wrong Genre Savvy believing he can use Robin (who is the former partner of Batman, need I remind you) as his apprentice by using a cybernetic drug that will kill the other Titans as leverage (ignoring the fact one of them is a sciencecy Cyborg who needs to update his system from time to time which means inspecting the inside of his body for any viruses).

. . . In hindsight, he probably should of just made Terra, a very impressionable teen, his apprentice from the beginning instead of revealing himself to the Titans in some poor attempt at acquiring Batman's number one partner for a pupil. I mean, he will still be an enigma and manage to destroy the Titans without the need of revealing himself by using a Tyke Bomb like Terra.

As I said, Slade's goals in the series were personal. Watching Robin in action, he saw something of himself in the kid, and decided "He will be mine."

Getting an apprentice was evidently something opportunistic he did on the road to his actual goals, whatever it is they were - at least at first. Not his main goal all along - when we first see him, he's up to something else that's never completely followed up on.

He's typically interpreted by fans as having a personal reason for wanting to acquire Robin specifically, but its very vague in the show itself. He makes a creepy attempt to be "fatherly" to everyone he talks to (even those super-few times he talks to Beast Boy), and it largely comes off as Faux Affably Evil rather than genuine investment.

The question of why he really wanted an apprentice and what he initially planned to use them for is never answered (though I can buy that by the time Terra came along his motives drifted from "??? -> Profit!" to "destroy the Titans and their precious city too, muhuhuhaha!").

edited 28th Aug '15 11:03:55 AM by KnownUnknown

See, I never got the impression that Slade wanted an apprentice in order to accomplish anything specific. He just thought having a powerful young person to mold in his image would be an awesome thing to have. Anything he might want to do once he has an apprentice is a secondary concern.

STEP 1: Find Awesome Teenage Superhero OR Metahuman.

STEP 2: Psychologically break said super teenager.

STEP 3: Train broken teenager into being an evil apprentice.

STEP 4: ????

STEP 5: PROFIT!

Have I mentioned how obsessed I am with this show yet? RAVEN IS THE GREATEST!!!!!!

But seriously, TT is absolutely amazing.