DC's Hercules and Marvel's Hercules

I think the mythological Amazons were more to show Greeks how messed up and screwy those barbarian non-Greeks were. "Them furrin wimmen cut off one breast, take up arms, and drown their male kin! Ain't they crazy?"

It's not even necessarily that bad. There's at least one version of the Amazons where it's just "Here's a place where the women do man stuff and the men do woman stuff! Isn't that crazy?"

edited 11th Jun '15 7:51:59 PM by ElkhornTheDowntrodden

No, it's that DC takes the classical Greek Hero, highlights all his negative traits, but then whitewashes other Hellenistic characters who were worse than him.

The Marvel family is exactly my point. They're empowered by Olympians, who tended to be much worse than Heracles as individuals, much less as a collective, yet are treated as paragons. It's bad enough Heracles comes off less sympathetic than more modern heroes like Superman, who DC loves to turn into Jesus with a cape, his own mythological counterparts are shown to be better than him. Forget any political statement about a nation of female rulers, the Amazons were the daughters of Ares, the god of everything wrong with war, what did you expect them to be like?

All of Ares's children, with the exception of Harmonia, were dickish. So the Amazons or Enyo being terrible isn't exactly gender commentary when Phobos and Deimos were just as bad and it's silly to make any of them heroic and then demonize Heracles. He's not exactly what most people outside of Hellenistic society would call an ideal hero but he was still better than Ares, Enyo, Phobos, Deimos and The Amazons.

For a Judeochristian equivalent, you can exaggerate the flaws of Abraham, Moses, Gabriel, Mary as much as you want but when you go on to set up Haman or Herod as their heroic foil, you're just being absurd. That in of itself isn't bad but DC comics has been taking all relevant parts seriously since that Crisis On Infinite Earths thing(longer than I've been alive).

The problem I have with DC Hercules is that they whitewash the mythology but then do the opposite one of the figures from it that needs the least amount of whitewashing and they're not doing it for satirical or absurdest reasons. It's straight as an ironing board.

Marvel meanwhile, satirizes nearly all of it. Hercules is a pornomancer, jokes about patricide running in his family, finds the nature of his afterlife system as ridiculous as the living planet's biology, has been taking to court for using excessive force, went binge drinking when his brother took his job, has to deflect accusations of sleeping with under aged boys even though his family tries to assure him its natural, purposefully uses his roman name to distance himself from his mother...his mother's spiteful, his father's a dick, his sister's immature, his overrated brother believes his own hype... as said, Pluto's grossly misrepresented but this is a topic on Hercules and I prefer Marvel's take.(but much of the same I said against DC Hercules I could say against Marvel Pluto. Hercules is a hero but Pluto is a villain? How does that work?)

The Marvel family is exactly my point. They're empowered by Olympians, who tended to be much worse than Heracles as individuals, much less as a collective, yet are treated as paragons.

Technically, they are empowered by the Wizard Shazam. The term "Shazam" stood for the Strength of whatever in the Golden Age, but I believe that changed and they just get it all from magic.

Plus, I mean, even if they did get their powers from the Greek Gods, the Marvels aren't the Gods themselves, so there is no reason for them to be jerks.

Hercules is a hero but Pluto is a villain? How does that work?

Because in Greek mythology, Hercules was a hero and Pluto was...well, the god of the underworld. If not exactly a villain, then nobody liked him.

edited 12th Jun '15 8:28:25 PM by alliterator

Doesn't the 'H' in Shazam! stand for Heracles' strenght anyway?

The wisdom of Solomon, the strength of Hercules, the stamina of Atlas, the power of Zeus, the courage of Achilles, and the speed of Mercury.

I mean, call me crazy, but I also don't think "Solomon" is one of the Greek gods.

-starts singing "I've got the wisdom of Solomon / and the strength of Hercules / and I haven't memorized what 'azam' was / but I still fight evil in my red pajamas."-

edited 12th Jun '15 8:57:48 PM by alliterator

edited 12th Jun '15 8:55:42 PM by ElkhornTheDowntrodden

Achilles wasn't a god either.

And Atlas was a Titan, not a God.

Hey, I don't think CC Beck even cared about Greek mythology at all!

Yeah, the Marvel Family don't even interact with the gods and heroes they take their names from, most of the time. I know I've seen a story or two where they do, including a crossover that nobody remembers, but...seriously, they're not even a factor, they just get name-checked.

As for there being no reason to demonize Hercules in Wonder Woman? The reason is that the most well-known Amazon myth is the one where they exist mostly as an obstacle for Hercules to conquer. Making the Amazons the heroes of the story automatically suggests that we're in Wicked or Grendel territory with flipping the perspective.

And it's not like the other Greek gods are all good guys in DC. Zeus is, at best, a patronizing ass; Ares is Wonder Woman's archnemesis; the rest come and go and don't particularly have much identity.

The Marvel Greek gods exist mostly to fill out Thor's section of the world, and as such fill roles suited to that. The DC Greek gods exist mostly for Wonder Woman's benefit, and thus their role are molded to that. Nothing wrong with a different take on the concepts that serves a particular story.

edited post.

edited 12th Jun '15 11:30:27 PM by windleopard

Brian Azarello's Wonder Woman run featured the pantheon of Greek deities and for the most part they were all manipulative, treacherous megalomaniac jackasses, frankly. The 'good' ones just happened to be the ones whose plans aligned with Diana's, for the most part... right until they didn't. Ares (War) actually came out as one of the more sympathetic of the whole bunch.

And that's why Azarello's run was one of the best, along with finally showing how totally fucked the Amazons' society would be and writing one of the best Dianas since Marston.

I actually don't think he had to change the Amazon society — he basically made them into rapists, which is not really something they can come back from.

I think Gail Simone's run was much, much better at showing a society that was good, but still suffered due to the whole "no children" thing.

The sailor sex was consensual! The murder afterwards wasn't, but the sex wasn't rape!

So you really think every guy on those boats just dropped their pants at the sight of a naked woman emerging from nowhere?

Oh and I love how he had no problem writing the Amazons as messed up but also sidestepping the fact that Zeus was a rapist himself.

Another thing I've noticed is that it seems people are more welcome to the Amazons being screwed up, but when it's a male Greek hero they're more willing to accept them being sanitized. I mean, where were the complaints when God of War III gave this version of Hercules?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLv8Wj_M10g

From /co/:

edited 13th Jun '15 10:37:14 AM by ElkhornTheDowntrodden

"Shazam" has, from the very beginning, been an anagram of all the gods and heroes whose names are contained therein. The original idea was to have a team, each character with a single power derived from one of those gods or heroes; it was quickly decided to just roll all those powers into one guy.

And no, Solomon wasn't a Greek god; he was a middle eastern sorceror-king who does figure into a lot of legends, not just the Old Testament. Comic from the 40's, man. Whaddaya want?

As to whether Hercules needs whitewashing, I think the case could be made. He did frequently fly into rages and kill family members (hence the need for his 12 labors in the first place). I've read speculation where it's opined that he may have been an epileptic. In any case, he certainly was not a sneering conqueror. More a demi-god with very little self control.

Yeah not buying it. What about guys who are gay? Or in committed relationships/married? Or just aren't so dumb as to not question where these women came from?

"Shazam" has, from the very beginning, been an anagram of all the gods and heroes whose names are contained therein. The original idea was to have a team, each character with a single power derived from one of those gods or heroes; it was quickly decided to just roll all those powers into one guy.

Um, no, the original idea was to have a character on par with Superman (the six characters would "combine" into one guy). Originally, Fawcett Comics created a hero called "Master Man," but DC sued them for copyright infringement (just like they sued Fox Comic's "Wonder Man"). Fawcett then made Captain Marvel and it was a hit — and DC sued them again, but Fawcett fought back, turning it into a twelve year lawsuit.

Along the way, Fawcett did end up creating a team of superheroes - the Marvel Family, including Mary Marvel, Captain Marvel Jr, Uncle Marvel, Hoppy the Marvel Bunny, the Lt. Marvels, Tawkey Tawny, and more.

edited 13th Jun '15 10:51:52 AM by alliterator

Beg to differ on this point. From Wikipedia:

"After the success of National Comics' new superhero characters Superman and Batman, Fawcett Publications started its own comics division in 1939, recruiting writer Bill Parker to create several hero characters for the first title in their line, tentatively titled Flash Comics. Besides penning stories featuring Ibis the Invincible, Spy Smasher, Golden Arrow, Lance O'Casey, Scoop Smith, and Dan Dare for the new book, Parker also wrote a story about a team of six superheroes, each possessing a special power granted to them by a mythological figure.

Fawcett Comics' executive director Ralph Daigh decided it would be best to combine the team of six into one hero who would embody all six powers. Parker responded by creating a character he called "Captain Thunder". Staff artist Charles Clarence "C. C." Beck was recruited to design and illustrate Parker's story, rendering it in a direct, somewhat cartoony style that became his trademark...

That jibes with the story I'd always heard. Now, whether Captain Thunder was supposed to be 6 guys combined into one and they didn't come up with the Billy Batson bit until Whiz Comics and Captain Marvel, I dunno, and neither does anyone else, given that no surviving copy of Flash Comics #1 with Captain Thunder is known to exist in any form.

And what I meant by saying that the name Shazam was from the beginning meant to be an anagram of the names of the 6 gods and heroes contributing their powers, I mean it was meant to be that from Captain Marvel's first appearance, in 1940. It's there, in Whiz Comics #2, on the wall behind the wizard Shazam, page 4, panel 1. Shazam never just meant "strength," it always was Solomon's Wisdom, Hercules' strength, Achilles courage, etc. Except perhaps when it was just Shazam's name, and he was a hero in ancient times and had his own magic word to turn into a super hero (and yes, that was canon once.)

Of course, when you apply it to Mary Marvel, the story just gets more convoluted; for Mary, "Shazam" stood for Selena (Grace) Hippolyta (strength) Ariadne (skill) Zephyrus (speed) Aurora (beauty) and Minerva (wisdom). Never mind that beauty and grace are apparently considered super-powers, and Zephyrus was a guy...

edited 13th Jun '15 12:58:15 PM by Robbery

Nice Straw Man Windleopard. Did I not mention Atalanta and Harmonia? I must not have because otherwise there wouldn't be a gender card to play.

The reason the Amazons are messed up in Greek myth is because they are the daughters of Ares. That's the thing, these religious figures don't exist in vacuums. Whether Ares was abhorred, such as in Athens, or venerated, as by the Romans, he's still the god of offensive war and all the spoils that come with it, so the Amazons are going to look bad once you start collecting stories of them from either view point unless you see offensive war as being inherently good. Heracles is simply one the few Greek heroes that is somewhat sympathetic to modern most audiences, like Perseus and Atlanta. It might take mixing a few different takes to get the best results and it still leaves a lot to be desired but Heracles is one part the story of a man who lost his family and another part a lengthy Aesop about working smart instead of hard, we can relate to atonement, strategics, and of course, the strongest guy ever. Taking Hera as his bane works because he was born out of wedlock and she's the defender of marriage, the product of her own husband's infidelity no less.

And Marvel Hercules isn't really whitewashed, he's still the man who lost all of his gold because he couldn't restrain himself, he still can't keep his pants up, he's brought down mountains and attempted murder over misunderstandings, its the presentation of it that works for me more than DC's Hercules. He seems more like the character as previously told adapted to a new setting and is more consistent with how the rest of those snatched up from his mythology are.

On another topic, Achilles invulnerability was a divine gift and the Titans are gods as much as the Olympians are. The fact Titans and Olympians are two rival groups of gods was a point I was waiting to bring up in the event this became a drawn out argument. Admittedly, the point about the wizard means I have to take back point about the "Egyptian" gods empowering an evil man, I guess.

The Amazons being daughters of Ares is one of several interpretations of them. Even then some versions only state Hippolyta as the daughter of Ares but not the entire tribe.

My point is that there are several different interpretations of these characters and stories. DC's version is just as valid as the ones that came before it thousands of years ago. Hell, even modern day scholars have argued as to whether or not Hera was responsible for the death of Heracles' family and there are quite a number of stories that involve his temper getting the better of him to disastrous results that don't involve god-induced madness.

Heracles is a lot more sympathetic than his fellow 'heroes' but that's really not saying much. Sure he was more likely to feel regret for his actions but that didn't make him less capable of committing horrendous deeds like killing his music teacher when the latter scolded him as a child or killing a man whose horses he stole (http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/herakles/moralmain.htm)

I understand that you prefer other takes on Heracles and that the DC incarnation is not to your liking. But it's one of several takes on the character which probably won't even affect his pop culture status. I mean, Superman is still DC's premiere hero and Paragon despite Injustice: Gods Among Us.

Also, DC may as well invest hardcore in an evil Hercules, given that Marvel has thoroughly cornered the market on him as a hero. DC Hercules will never, ever be in the Justice League, I'd estimate, so why not go full villain with him?