I'm not saying that he's ready to move on. I'm saying that with this kind of writing he might eventually come to that point.
- They already went into somewhat different direction with Netflix's version of Frank though. He doesn't seem too inclined to spend his life chasing street-level thugs, and he seemed more or less ready to at least try and get help at the end of his show's first season.
Frank has only now just started getting around to processing the death of his family in a way that isn’t solely reliant on his violent reaction to that reality. And while Frank may now have a license to go live as Pete Castiglione, we know he won't because otherwise we'd have no show.
- Also, I don't know about comic book!Punisher, but Netflix!Punisher gets attached to people very easily and quickly. He already considers the Liebermans and Karen his family, so he is able to form new emotional connections.
The MAX version of Frank is one who has been the Punisher for over 30 years. Not ONCE in that entire timespan did he get over losing Maria and the kids. Even in the Spider-Gwen verse where Maria is alive, Frank’s urge to become the Punisher ended up killing their marriage.
The cold never bothered me anyway
The existence of Sister Maggie now raises some new questions about what they could do with season 3. A lot of them factor in to Matt revealing to his friends that he's alive.
I mean, one possibility is that Father Lantom knows her. In one episode of season 1, Father Lantom implied he knew Matt's parents. So he could play a part in Matt's transition back to the living (especially since Father Lantom has been greatly underused in everything since season 1; his only scenes since then have been Grotto's funeral in 2x04 and Matt's confessional in the first episode of The Defenders).
Another possibility is that Karen uncovers something about Sister Maggie while trying to find if Matt had any biological relatives.
(I have this idea that Karen will likely be the first to learn Matt is alive, and Foggy won't learn until much MUCH later.)
edited 31st Jan '18 10:31:23 AM by dmcreif
The cold never bothered me anyway
Obviously, the main cast are too busy filming to do interviews and panels and are on tight spoiler lockdown. I would say that of the cast so far, Amy Rutberg (Marci)'s probably been the most active in the past month or two when it
comes to interviews. I like how the actors have a great grasp of what their characters are like, and here's Rutberg's description of Marci:
- "She is trying to hustle in a man’s world and I can appreciate that. She is the hardest working person in the room and doesn’t apologize for who she is and what she likes. We are similar in that way. I think Marci is deeply protective of Foggy, her boyfriend from law school. She loves him very much. No one will compare to him. He does something to her. He is the yin to her yang."
On Marci and Foggy's relationship:
- "[I most love] the loyalty and friendship. Marci is always straight and brutally honest with Foggy, more so than Matt or Karen in a way. She has his best interest at heart because she loves him and knows him. She may not always be right about what he needs, but it comes from the right place — protection and love."
She also talks about the Marvel snipers when it comes to Daredevil in these interviews, which definitely seems to be confirmation that Marci will be back in season 3 (no surprise, since Foggy is starting the season still at Hogarth Chao & Benowitz).
edited 25th Feb '18 11:34:43 AM by dmcreif
The cold never bothered me anyway
With Jessica Jones season 2 out, I think Foggy and Marci will move to Hogarth's new firm. Depending on whether you interpret the "& Associates" in "Jeryn Hogarth and Associates" to be Marci and Foggy, or Malcolm and Cheng.
The cold never bothered me anyway
Almost inevitably, Season 2 will be Micro's family dying and Frank going on his murder spree forever.
Note: This is not a spoiler but me guessing. Hopefully, they WON'T do it.
edited 10th Mar '18 8:09:07 PM by CharlesPhipps
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Funny but not helpful
Oh cool untagged spoilers in a different thread from the content that is being spoiled
Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
Can we, like, keep any spoilers for Jessica Jones Season 2 only in the Jessica Jones thread, please? I've been spoiled twice now and I've yet to even watch the new season because I've been preoccupied.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
JJS 2 spoilers can probably start being untagged around the time Luke Cage season 2 comes out...
On the other hand, it's not a spoiler to let loose some speculation about season 3, which in my case is that Matt and Karen will continue to carry the main branches of the protagonist storyline. For awhile, I speculated this as being simply because this was how the first two seasons structured the protagonist narratives, with Matt doing his Daredevil stuff while Karen was showing the civilian perspective with her journalism work. But now I speculate that this is also because these are the two members of the main trio for whom taking down Fisk is the most personal. For Matt, it's a matter of protecting Karen and Foggy, as well as innocent people in Hell's Kitchen. For Karen, it's that, self-preservation due to the fact that she killed Wesley, and a bit of a vendetta streak, given that Fisk killed Karen's first mentor and never was brought to justice for Ben's death (the most severe charges against Fisk were the murders of Detective Blake and those other cops killed at the standoff with Matt and Vladimir). And I still believe there's a stronger chance of Karen learning Matt is alive before Foggy does, just because of her job and her inquisitive personality in general (and because the show will need to have someone for Matt to have interactions with in his civilian identity, once he's, y'know, recovered and out of the convent).
Speaking of Karen, I feel like she's gonna be a bit of a stealth protagonist for season 3. I mean, she has more personal motives for bringing down Fisk, she's now in the Bulletin job which gives her even more agency and autonomy than she had at Nelson & Murdock, and we know from Deborah Ann Woll's interviews and some unofficial casting calls that her past will be getting explored. And I don't think she can be killed off now because she's the only active journalist from the main cast of any of the shows, now that Trish Talk has gone off the air.
Karen's Bulletin job may even be how they weave the FBI story into Matt's story. Karen goes to speak to the FBI agents investigating Fisk. I can totally imagine her persuading Bethel's character to give her information off-the-record by saying things like, "Fisk killed two people very close to me. I'll feed you everything I know if you feed stuff I don't know." And this information could then be passed onto Matt, helping him and Foggy along.
Oh, and we'll still have a slick-haired Foggy for season 3. Part of me will always miss his long season 1 and season 2 hair, but the new look is still pretty nice on Elden Henson. I mean, for a forty year old actor, he actually looks more like a 25 year old with that haircut.
edited 13th Mar '18 1:33:25 PM by dmcreif
The cold never bothered me anyway
So what kind of villains would you like to see in season 3, besides Kingpin. Bullseye is the obvious answer, there are other merc type villains like Bullet or Typhoid Mary. There is also Mr. Fear (villain with a gimmick similar to DC's Scarecrow) who was a rival Matt had back in law school who became a corrupt lawyer and murderous psychopath.
Echo. Though she is more an antagonist turned ally.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
And she joins the Avengers for a bit. Not that they actually do anything that, but there you are.
I think Mr. Fear should be introduced but not used fully in this season. I want season 4 or 5 to be an adaptation of Brubaker's best arc, "Without Fear", which is Mr. Fear's finest hour as a character (and where he branched out from Scarecrow). Since Mysterio is with Sony and might be used for the films, you could make an adaptation blending Without Fear and Guardian Devil.
I'd use for this season The Owl, following up on the hook of Leeland Jr.
edited 18th Mar '18 8:44:48 AM by Gaon
"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Anything but Guardian Devil. I think the writers are going to avoid that storyline where Karen is fridged for Matt's manpain.
The cold never bothered me anywayTechnically Born Again (the storyline clearly being adapted here) features Heather Glenn, Murdock's then-girlfriend, committing suicide to fuel his manpain. Without Fear also features Mr. Fear driving Milla Donovan insane to fuel Matt's manpain. Adaptations change things.
With Born Again the main focus of the story is in Murdock's life being unmade by the Kingpin and his subsequent recovery, with Without Fear the focus is on Daredevil's struggles with Mr. Fear's mind-games, with Guardian Devil the focus is on Murdock's struggle with his faith when he finds a baby that may or may not be the Antichrist.
In all cases except maybe Without Fear (where rendering Milla irreparably insane is actually Mr. Fear's end-goal), the love interest's demise is very tangential to the story and can be safely adapted out.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."
I've read the original Frank Miller Bullseye stories and they're actually really-really good because they go in an unexpected direction. it starts with Bullseye being a relatively traditional hitman (by Marvel standards at least), only for him to suffer brain damage in the process of getting his ass beaten by Daredevil and becoming a seriously dangerous threat. Then Bullseye kills a lot of people due to his lost emotional control and hallucinations with Daredevil deciding he has to die.
Matt TRIES to kill Bullseye at the end ala Jessica Jones and Kilgrave but ends up crippling him instead only by accident.
The story is a deconstruction of Joker Immunity and being confronted with a genuinely evil threat that gets worse because of your attempts to fight it morally.
edited 18th Mar '18 12:08:18 PM by CharlesPhipps
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.Bullseye had a generally interesting arc because in his first bout with Matt it's made clear that he's the cream of the crop of Hitmen and as he often likes to brag, he never misses (perfect aim and all that) or fails at a job. His track record is impeccable.
But when he goes against Matt he not only fails, but he misses, meaning either his aim isn't perfect or Matt is so fucking better than him he can negate his aim. Bullseye's arc proceeds to be him getting progressively more unhinged with every time he fails to kill Murdock because that isn't supposed to happen.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."
- Technically Born Again (the storyline clearly being adapted here) features Heather Glenn, Murdock's then-girlfriend, committing suicide to fuel his manpain.
I don't consider Heather Glenn's suicide as being part of Born Again, but of the arc immediately preceding it.
- Bullseye had a generally interesting arc because in his first bout with Matt it's made clear that he's the cream of the crop of Hitmen and as he often likes to brag, he never misses (perfect aim and all that) or fails at a job. His track record is impeccable.
This. There are a lot of fantastic sides of Bullseye's character that be interesting to see on-camera. His original premise, of an up-and-coming hit man trying to earn a rep and attract some business, would be a lot of fun. His complicated relationship with Daredevil, of simultaneous hatred and fascination, is ripe for some live action exploration. Unfortunately, in more recent years, his role in the Daredevil comics has become The Guy Who Kills Matt’s Girlfriends– which makes him a threatening villain, but not a particularly interesting character.
Though I do wonder, if Bullseye comes along, how do they handle those talents? He’s like Frank Castle in that he's one of those characters who doesn’t have powers, but whose skills often verge on superhuman.
What I was getting at when talking about how I don't want Guardian Devil to be adapted, I was talking about some of the various misogynistic things that happen, in how it handles Matt's relationships with Karen and Natasha, and of course Karen getting fridged. And it'd be for the best for Karen to not be killed off because Karen is the only main female cast member on the protagonist side of things in Daredevil, and she is critical to the plot. Claire is barely in Daredevil and who knows what's happening with Elektra post-Defenders. If they killed Karen off, I feel it would be a really bad call and I think the show would lose a ton of its fan base.
Speaking of Karen Page, something occurred to me regarding her character. I said a few times in The Punisher thread that I felt that there, she really was just a plot device and could've been cut from the story with minimal impact. I think there was a reason why Karen had such a very limited role in The Punisher season 1, and it has to do with Daredevil season 3's plot. Namely, there are ton of logistical and story issues that need to be coordinated when one show shares characters with another. Character arcs need to be considered, and you can't have a character do something completely out of character or have a major revelation about their own story/character on a show other than their home show, because Marvel and Netflix want these shows to each be as standalone as possible.
That's in fact the reason why you can go straight from Jessica Jones season 1 to Jessica Jones season 2 without having to watch The Defenders: Melissa Rosenberg apparently told to leave the Jessica Jones characters in the same place they had been when it began. And that's also the case with Karen in The Punisher season 1. Clearly, Steve Lightfoot was given very strict limitations on what he could do with Karen. We can tell that Karen is visibly in a state of sadness due to mourning Matt's "death", even though she never explicitly mentions Matt by name, and her grief is the reason she's adamant about not letting someone else she cares for like Frank get themselves killed over something like Matt did. However, her grief never gets explored beyond a surface level, no further hints are dropped towards Karen's past, and she never talks with Frank about her past or about killing Wesley. And I think the reason for that is because those character beats (how she's processing Matt's "death", her past, and coming clean about Wesley) are all being reserved for Daredevil season 3, which is her home show and where those details are relevant to the immediate plot.
The cold never bothered me anywayAs I have just mentioned, it is very easy to adapt Guardian Devil without fridging Karen.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."
I think there are some other elements of Guardian Devil that make the arc problematic that have nothing to do with Karen, such as the Messiah baby and some misogyny stuff.
The cold never bothered me anywayWhat's wrong with the Messiah baby? For what is worth, I don't exactly find Murdock and Natasha's relationship in the story all that problem.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."
What I have a problem with in Guardian Devil is its toxic attitude towards women in general and sex workers in particular.
The cold never bothered me anyway
What I have a problem with in Guardian Devil is its toxic attitude towards women in general and sex workers in particular.
Daredevil is arguably the most misogynist superheroes in comics. Not many other superheroes can claim they drove one girlfriend to suicide (Heather Glenn) and two others insane (Typhoid Mary and Milla Donovan). Note I point out this isn't, "had them commit suicide and go insane" I mean in the narrative is actually responsible for doing it.
Deadpool actually dropped his act once to call Matt out about the horrible way he treated women.
edited 20th Mar '18 8:36:33 PM by CharlesPhipps
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
I don't think that makes Daredevil (the character) misogynistic. It does show that the stories he appears don't treat women very well though.
Also, Typhoid Mary was always mentally unstable, Heather's suicide was due to her own issues and Milla being driven mad was Mr Fear's doing.
@dmcrief what exactly is your problem with Natasha in Guardian Devil?
edited 21st Mar '18 7:31:10 AM by windleopard
Now don't get me wrong; I'm an unapologetic shipper and proud of it.
But some characters just shouldn't be shipped. A good ship shouldn't undermine the basic premise of the character to support.
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.