Netflix Daredevil

Truthfully, I think a Fisk from a few days earlier would have taken the deal. Unfortunately, too much had happened to make that possible. Maybe if Owlsley had put it on a tighter schedule, so that Fisk didn't have a whole day to search for the cop. It would have been hard to do that, but if he had, then even with current disposition at the time Fisk might not have risked it.

Deserve? Why? The guy was an asshole. I really entertaining sarcastic asshole, sure, but an asshole still. I don't see how he "deserve" anything.

Nah. I think Fisk would have killed Owsley no matter what. One of his defining characteristic is how he lose his calm regarding his loved ones. Owsley was doomed the moment he admitted he tried to kill Vanessa.

edited 12th Apr '15 5:32:48 PM by Heatth

I think Matt Murdock could very easily cameo in Civil War. Not as Daredevil, but as a lawyer being interviewed on the legal ramifications of the Superhero Registration act. He might only be onscreen for a few seconds on a TV in the background, but that would be a cameo.

edited 12th Apr '15 5:36:19 PM by Falrinn

Deserved in terms of having a well-thought out plan and being the smartest of Fisk's collaborators that took advantage of every significant event (discounting Gao, Who bowed out at the end) - including Fisk himself. He "deserved the win" just by outplaying everyone.

I don't think anyone, save maybe Karen and Ben (maybe Foggy), deserved to win based on morality alone.

Fair enough. I'll include Foggy in that. From a super-strict moral standard of "Everyone has the right to know everything" his secret-keeping in relation to Matt could be seen as a little dubious. But because of the nature of superhero/comics logic, it isn't really.

edited 12th Apr '15 6:44:51 PM by HisInfernalMajesty

Maybe Foggy? What's Foggy ever done wrong?

I don't remember he taking advantage of that many events. Or any, for that matter. He crafted a plan. That failed. I mean, it was a good plan, if faulty implemented, but that was it.

Btw, which moral standard says "everyone have the right to know everything? Privacy is usually considered a good thing. I can understand if you are just applying to the knowledge of criminal activities such as vigilantism, but that is a weird way to word it.

Know what I really like? All the Fridge Brilliance and Foreshadowing throughout the series surrounding Matt's decision to adopt at the image of a red devil as a costume.

edited 13th Apr '15 6:17:26 AM by nervmeister

I like the scene he's talking to the Priest, and the Priest ruminates on how maybe the Devil is supposed to be a symbol to be feared, to terrify people into not following the dark path, and it cuts to Matt's face where you can practically see the little wheels spinning in his head.

Then there's the type of mental picture his super senses give him.

Wow, I did not think about that at well. Quite clever.

Just finished watching.

For the record, Foggy isn't pro-everyone knowing everything. He was just against bigshots running everything with money and wanted that in the public eye, since it was affecting the public. When he found out Matt had been using his lie-detecting abilities for the entirety of their friendship, he was incredibly pissed off, and he specifically says it's because of the invasion of privacy.

Have to say, I really like Matt and Foggy's friendship. This show is great with portrayals of friendships in general. Heck, even the villains have their share!

Huh, I thought he was pissed off because Matt was playing along with the lies.

He specifically said it was the violation of privacy. Playing along with the lies was just an annoyance on top of that. You expect your friends to play along with little white lies if they notice them. You don't expect them to notice every single one.

Everyone considers it a gross violation of privacy when it happens to them.

I just finished episode 2.

Wow, that final sequence. HOLY SHIT, WOW. LIKE WOW.

I guess the filmmaker must be a fan of Oldboy, but...I'm a bit stunned to find something that impressive in a TV show about a superhero. And it's not even something that was "supposed to be" great TV like True Detective. It's Marvel, FFS, and they pull a scene like that.

I don't know who the stuntman for Matt is, but that guy deserves a statue.

Well, I've watched through Episode 4 now. You're right that the development and inclusion of female characters improves. There are still major things I don't like about the show, in particular the use of brutal torture by Matt, the narrative acceptance of it, and the acceptance of the (false) premise that torture is an effective means of gaining information. It feels like 24 did, and that was a show that, by the later seasons, made me want to take a shower after watching it. (I stopped watching NCIS even casually when I got sick of then threatening to send people to Gitmo or put them away without charges.) There's a sensibility common to shows dealing with crime, that people can be sorted into neat categories labelled "good citizen" and "criminal", and that the latter aren't really people so anything done to them is unacceptable. It's not a presumption that I share. I really hope the show delves into this more later (to some degree it already has, by showing the mobsters torturing the young Hispanic guy in the same way that Matt tortured the man in Episode 2, which creates parallels), although regardless it's still propogating the myth that torture is the most effective way of getting actionable information. Similarly, Matt getting a man acquitted and subsequently beating him up gives the impression that this is a lawyer who doesn't give two craps for the law.

But then, I've got a lot of issues and reservations with the basic concept of vigilante crimefighting as a heroic activity. Which means that I don't accept the basic premise of a great deal of comic book and comic-book-adaptation plots; it's not exclusive to this show.

I'm also frustrated by the visual darkness; it's very hard to see what's going on quite a bit of the time.

However, the fourth episode was extremely well done, and it did a fascinating job making Wilson Fisk into an extremely interesting and textured villain. (In contrast, Matt's a fairly template antihero. He even does the Nolan Batman voice.) Hard to see how Fisk can possibly claim to be making the city a better place by human trafficking, so getting a better sense of his worldview in later episodes will be interesting.

edited 15th Apr '15 4:33:30 PM by Galadriel

Oh, wait until episode five, "World on Fire."

We already had the torture discussion earlier in the thread (or the other one, I don't remember). I agree with you, on general terms. The general glorification of torture is bothersome and I really wish they wrote it differently. That said, Matt's powers means that, for him, torture is a more reliable way to gain information. At very last, he is guaranteed to distinguish false information and is able to stop when it is clear the victim doesn't have nothing else. This eliminates two of the most important practical problems of torture (it does nothing for the more important moral problems, however).

I will reinforce that I find torture abhorrent and I really wished the show treated the issue more seriously.

edited 15th Apr '15 6:37:36 PM by Heatth

I mentioned before (either in this thread or the main thread) but if you combined Matt's powers with some interrogation skills from Romanov (or if they teamed up, and they apparently did date at one point in the comics) you'd have a pretty awesome way to get info out of someone.

Hell, Matt would have made an incredible Shield agent, not just for his ability to track people and suss out the truth, but also due to his fighting skills....

Plus, the Hydra incident might have been stopped before it even got off the ground.

In a sense, he's wasted as a Lawyer and a Vigilante, even if he's done a lot of good.

Seeing as how the Hydra incident got off the ground in the late 60s or so I doubt Matt would have out and out prevented it. He would have possibly been able to stop it at a time when SHIELD would have been salvageable.

Right, Perhaps what I should have said is that....

Well, what you said.

Glad I thought of it.

Also, Matt discerns lies biologically, but he's not omniscient. He's not a super-lie detector in the sense that he automatically zeroes in on things he hears that are lies simply because they're lies - he's a super polygraph who senses the various natural tells people have for lying.

Against spies, people like Ward or Garrett or Rumlow people who lie for a living and know how to do so without showing signs, his powers would be far less effective. Everyone he uses it on are either regular joes or mooks and criminals who, while hard as nails, aren't masters of deception or anything.

From what we see Widow doing, his powers probably wouldn't work so well with her interrogation style anyway, because of how much her style relies on putting people in false senses of security and letting them put their feet in their mouth, not picking holes in their stories. If we contrive the situation such that Daredevil had Widow's abilities, he wouldn't need his own abilities.

edited 15th Apr '15 6:56:58 PM by KnownUnknown

He might get curious why so many of his coworkers are whispering "hail hydra" to each other though.

Are we sure about that? Spies will be trained to hide when they're lying but those methods aren't perfect. It might be harder but I feel like Matt could discern whether or not they're lying if he concentrates hard enough.