The Navy Thread

Unmanned surface craft uses sonar and successfully fires on board torpedos. Basically the next step in surface drone ASW.

And yet the most hilarious thing when you think about it is. After Pearl Harbor, not a single American battleship was ever sunk by aircraft or submarines or surface action. (And boy did the Japanese try on some occasions.)

The same cannot be said of aircraft carriers. Factoring in escort carrier losses, I think we lost more carriers from December 7 1941 to September 1 1945 than we ever lost battleships over the same time frame.

Arguably, that would be because the carriers were much more dangerous, and thus higher priority targets than the battlewagons, which in most naval engagements were limited to being heavily armored Anti-Air platforms.

An aircraft carrier was both a softer target and a much higher value one.

From what I understand it was more opportunities to kill them. Until really late in 1942 we had ZERO operational battleships in the Pacific compared to like six carriers (both light and fleet carriers, all but one would be either sunk or out of action under repairs by October 1942) over the same time frame.

Funny I seem to recall said battleships also having the benefit of the protection of more numerous carriers and their air wings to fend off enemy fighters and bombers in the first place. I mean it isn't like the carriers could project power at far more significant ranges then the battleships or anything.

As for carriers in 1942 there were more then 6. The US had a love affair with Escort Carriers and by the end of the 1942 we had quite a few in the water and in service.

edited 28th Jun '16 5:24:46 PM by TuefelHundenIV

^ Prior to November 1942 there were:

• Langley (sunk February 1942, off Java)
• Lexington (sunk May 1942, Coral Sea)
• Hornet (sunk, October 1942, Santa Cruz Islands)
• Yorktown (sunk, June 1942, Midway)
• Wasp (sunk, September 1942, en route to Guadalcanal. I-19 was the sub that sank her.)
• Saratoga (under repairs in October 1942 following the Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands I think)
• Enterprise (operational)

Ranger was in the Atlantic and for a time in October 1942 into November 1942, the Big E was the ONLY operational carrier in service in the Pacific that could oppose the Imperial Japanese Navy. At that moment she was outnumbered by Japanese carriers of all types like 6 to 1.

edited 28th Jun '16 6:01:28 PM by MajorTom

Also, factoring in escort carriers is a bit disingenuous, as those were built to be cannon fodder. Slower, smaller air wings, less protection, less damage control capabilities. If the Japanese fifty CV Es over the course of the war, we'd still be left with more CV Es than they had carriers of all types, not counting the ones we sold to the Royal Navy.

Still wrong there Tom. There were ample number of escort carriers several of which were afloat prior to 1942 and again by the end of 1942 the number climbed sharply with most of the launching being between the months of April and June of 1942 and deployed into the pacific very shortly there after. Big E wasn't the only carrier by any stretch in the Pacific.

edited 28th Jun '16 7:19:12 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Something I keep forgetting is that the US Navy was already commissioning jeep carriers before our entry into WWII. Probably because we were building more of everything in 1940-41, and it probably helped that the Atlantic Fleet was already hunting U-Boats throughout 1941.

Some of the ships were refits as well with one underway in the pacific by the middle of 1942. A few others were also reclassified and pushed into service. Mostly older carriers were pushed out to sea. It also doesn't help the US had several varieties of carriers either. Including light and escort carriers, and even a really old carrier turned into a sea plane tender.

While there not a bunch of big deck carriers in the pacific Big E wasn't the only carrier on the seas and several ships were afloat and deployed between the middle to the end of the year including another large deck carrier, which Tom listed, in time for Guadalcanal in 1942.

From 1943 onwards the US ship yards pretty much barf out a shit load of escort carriers. By 1945 the US had built something 88 of the damn things in a number of shapes and configurations.

edited 28th Jun '16 7:36:32 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Were any of the light or escort carriers serving in the Pacific in the time period we're talking about? Recall that at the same time, the Atlantic was so infested with German submarines that they were using civilian volunteers to fly anti-sub patrols in their own airplanes. Surely these carriers would also be in high demand for convoy escort and the like over there.

edited 28th Jun '16 7:39:00 PM by AFP

On October 16, 1942 it was. At least the only one left operational. Saratoga (the only other carrier assigned to the Pacific that wasn't sunk) was laid up for repairs at the time.

As for escort carriers:

• USS Long Island: Commissioned 1941, stuck as training ship in San Diego in October 1942.
• USS Charger: Commissioned March 1942. Never served in the Pacific.
• Sangamon-class CVE's: All commissioned by 1941, all 4 ships deployed to Atlantic in October-November 1942.
• Bogue class CVE's:
  • USS Bogue: Commissioned September 1942, not deployed to Pacific.
  • USS Card (yes, that one): Commissioned November 8, 1942, not deployed until 1943 in the Atlantic theater.
  • USS Copahee: Commissioned June 1942, undergoing overhaul in San Diego post October 29 1942.
  • USS Core: Commissioned December 1942, not present in Pacific in October-November 1942.
  • USS Nassau: Commissioned August 1942, not deployed to combat during operations in October-November 1942.
  • USS Altamaha: Commissioned September 1942, not deployed to the South Pacific until late November.
  • USS Barnes: Commissioned February 1943, not present in the Pacific in 1942.
  • USS Block Island: Commissioned March 1943, never sent to the Pacific.
  • USS Breton: Commissioned April 1943, not present in Pacific in October-November 1942.
  • USS Croatan: Commissioned April 1943, not present in Pacific in October-November 1942.
  • All remaining Bogue class ships commissioned April 1943 or later, not present in Pacific at noted time.
• Casablanca-class escort carriers: None complete in 1942.
• Commencement Bay class escort carriers: None complete in 1942.

Tom: Try again.

CVE-16 USS Nassau and CVE-18 USS Altamaha were in the Pacific Oct 1942. A third new ship Was Deployed in August. They were in the Pacific kind of undermines your claim Big E was the only game in town when by your own admission it is not. Really pull the other one it has bells on.

USS Long Island was not stuck stateside either. Kind of hard to be in Fiji in time for its craft to help with Guadalcanal if it is stuck state side now isn't it.

Several craft were either in the Pacific as part of fleets or in and out of the Pacific.

edited 28th Jun '16 8:57:06 PM by TuefelHundenIV

There's also the question of how they were used.

For much of the desperate fighting in late 1942 and early 1943, it was the carriers that counted, but by the end of 1942, the Japanese and American carrier arms had battered each other into exhaustion. Neither side really targeted BBs when they were after CVs, and when the carriers were withdrawn from Guadalcanal, BBs were only ever used at night because they were too vulnerable to air attack during the daytime. Chancing battleships under an enemy's air umbrella even for short periods was a tremendously risky thing, though, as Hiei learned the hard way. (Crippled in a duel with cruisers, then found by American land-based air come morning and subsequently pounded to death.)

That is a nasty fate to be left to the "birds".

Aircraft could be particularly dangerous for damaged ships. If they are leaking oil, the pilots just have to chance across your trail and follow the blood right to you.

That's moving the goalposts mate. I just gave a list of every CVE built. None of them were deployed to combat in the Pacific after October 11 and before November 28. Those that were in the Pacific weren't being used as aircraft carriers outside of training in that time frame.

The Navy knew they had nothing else available after the Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands. If they had more and stuff worth a damn, the crew of the Enterprise wouldn't have famously put that sign "Enterprise vs Japan" on the flight deck. (Sources: [1], [2], [3])

edited 29th Jun '16 4:55:25 AM by MajorTom

There is moving the goal posts and pointing out as per usual you keep ignoring details and exaggerating or simply ignoring evidence even when you post it. Noting two carriers are in fact in the Pacific not in a port, not out for repairs, but in actual theatre but discounting them is moving the goal posts. You yourself listed no fewer then two carriers in the pacific in fleet at the same time as Big E. Big E may have at most had a few weeks as the only game IF that. Given two of those ships launched directly into the pacific from port that is really unlikely. Then the fact one carrier kept going in and out of various ports to sally into the Pacific. No it isn't moving goal posts it is pointing out that you keep ignoring details.

Imagine waking up to this on the shore. A lost ship wreck winds up uncovered on a shore.

edited 29th Jun '16 2:19:35 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Ugh, shipwrecks always give me the creeps. I don't think there's an actual clinical term for such a phobia, but if there is, I've got it.

They should send it back out so it can become a home for fishies and stuff.

Apparently it is sort of a tourist attraction. It is a modern ship to boot.

More research being done for Super Cavitating Submarines

Fuck the fishies! They don't need us to make homes for them like they are some kind of refugee. They deserve to be on a plate and served for dinner or staying the fuck away from us.

Fish are friends, not food.

I'm reminded of an unfortunate incident in WWII when a destroyer hit and killed a whale in its maiden voyage.