The Armored Vehicle Thread

For those interested in the British adoption of the 40mm CTA Cannon system this might be interesting.

Initial Evaluation of the CTA International 40-mm Cased Telescoped Weapon System Note this was a US evaluation done back in 2000.

Janes article on the gun from July this year so you can note it is the same weapon system.

Here is the summary of the evaluation.

Janes: upgunned Strykers might be appearing as early as December.

Between those and the 4km Javelins being added to RWS Strykers, US motorized riflemen ^note I know they're not technically called that, but motor rifles are what they are have a lot to be hype about.

Now that's finally getting somewhere. About time we started properly competing with the Russians in the IFV department.

I wish we had more info on those new BTR-82 turret mountings and the 8km Kornet missiles. And something about those rumors of a 57mm gun for the BTR-82 as well.

30mm? You need the 40mm CTA cannon .

edited 3rd Oct '16 1:39:15 PM by Greenmantle

It isn't like the LAV-25 or the M2/M3 Bradley never existed either.

57mm is the old S-60 converted to belt feed, with old AP ammo. The 35mm APFSDS has just as much performance but in a lot less space; the 40mm CTA has much better performance, and is vastly more space-efficient.

The main advantage would be cost: old stocks of 57mm are absolutely everywhere, and the HE shell hits hard.

edited 3rd Oct '16 2:39:53 PM by SabresEdge

Plus it could be used as last ditch Anti-Air. A 57mm HE round from one of those guys would ruin the day of just about anything that flies.

You can't say the same thing about 25 and 30mm.

If it manages to hit anything flying.

An actual 57mm on an IFV? The Begleitpanzer 57 would be proud.

And yes, short of proximity fuzing, lobbing those HE shells skyward isn't likely to be more than a all-or-nothing affair. In other words, usually nothing.

Well to be fair the 57mm can be modernized to fire a wider range of ammo the plain ole impact HE-Frag and I am fairly certain there are few varieties extant of air bursting ammo that includes Bofor's 3P for the guns.

Speaking of the 40mm CTA the US did take a look at it and apparently it passed muster in general including fitting into the Bradley turret.

HE rounds from an AZP-S-60 anti-aircraft gun have timed fuzes. At least manually set ones. I think VT fuzes are available for the platform.

It wouldn't surprise me if S-60 modernizations allow those old rounds to be set on the fly by a modern rangefinder and FCS. Even to the degree that they could be a poor man's 3P munition.

A 40mm round's going to spoil your day if you're in a helicopter and you get hit with one, but a 57mm round, especially one that's been modernized to match today's standards, is going to seriously fuck you up. If they do put them in the BTR it could be a tricky thing to take on if it sees you first.

I'll be amazed if they stuff that onto a BTR without completely wrecking its transport capability. The one platform that it's actually confirmed to be on is a PT-76 modification, and the 57mm turret takes up practically all the internal usable room. The BMP-3 modification that's been mentioned isn't confirmed for production, but it's one of the few armored fighting vehicles that'd have the room for the turret while retaining transport capability.

As I understand it, the Russians are quite happy with the BMP-3 since they've had 25+ years to work the bugs out of it, and it'd be a perfectly good interim IFV before the supposed next-gen vehicles make their way into mass production. Doctrine calls for the 100mm HE-FRAG shell to be used as the primary anti-light-vehicle weapon; against even heavier vehicles it can be counted on to do some exterior damage.

Putting 57mm shells on BR Ts will probably make them more prone to explode spectacularly than they already do.

I mean it isn't like cramming an already tight IFV with even more munitions will do them any favors when they get a penetrating hit.

Yuo see Ivan, when yuo cram many 57mm into IFV yuo never fear ambushins. Cause enemy beins afraid of gettins caught in the cookoff blastings radius

edited 3rd Oct '16 9:03:38 PM by AngelusNox

For whatever it's worth I heard they're actually cannibalizing the guns from the old AK-whatever naval mounts and not using the land ones. Maybe.

I dunno, I am like 99% sure people aren't supposed to ride in the 57mm BTR though.

It could be a fire support vehicle rather than one that's a troop truck. One that doesn't look sufficiently different from the standard ones if they're trying to sneak up closer or something like that.

This is probably a very inaccurate comparison, but how well did the Zhalo-S do in the troop carrying department?

From what I can gather, that was just a flat out tank-hunter rather than a battle taxi. They only made one prototype.

Probably very badly.

There are some pictures of modified Cuban BTR-60s with the T-54's 100mm turret mounted on top, hopefully with some of the armor shaved off (or else the thing would tip over in a stiff breeze). Theoretically it'd be dangerous, but that's cancelled out by how the thing is vulnerable to autocannon fire from a much lighter vehicle. As I understand it, that's what killed the rationale for all those proposed fire-support vehicles.

I thought this sounded a bit familiar and then it struck me.

The ATOM-IFV

Some more info on the turret and gun

One more in a 57mm RWS

edited 3rd Oct '16 10:51:36 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Interesting. I'm noticing that a ton of these new prototypes and designs aren't actually being produced but are having lots of their parts taken and adapted for existing Russian platforms.

Looks like the advertising is APHE rounds with ~130mm-ish penetration, which I am going to call BS on immediately. Unless you can work some serious magic, you're not going to get 120mm+ RHA penetration with 57mm APHE. Sabot-type rounds, yes, but I'm not seeing those.

As for ATOM, color me extremely skeptical about it ever advancing to production stage. It gets to compete against advanced BTR-80/82/87 variants and Bumerang, both with the advantage of relatively small turrets (hence minimizing internal space taken up by it); without foreign cooperation it's DOA.

EDIT: come to think of it, I wonder if the Cuban 100mm BTR was the result of encounters against South African armored cars in the Angola war. That conflict may be mostly forgotten today, but it's a major conflict with a lot of high-intensity fighting between two well-equipped foes, and there happens to be a very good study of it written here.

edited 3rd Oct '16 11:00:55 PM by SabresEdge

@ FSV: On that subject, aren't the Filipinos about to re-create the Australian M113 Medium Reconnaissance Vehicle, by moving turrets from their Scorpions onto second-hand M113s?

• AM General displays new Hawkeye lightweight 105 mm howitzer at AUSA 2016
• BAE Systems debuting next generation Bradley prototype at AUSA 2016
• General Dynamics unveils Griffin tracked vehicle with 120mm cannon

edited 3rd Oct '16 11:40:51 PM by Greenmantle

It already happened. Elbit finished delivery of M113s with Scorpion turrets months ago. The M113s were former Belgian Army vehicles.

Not directly connected to the subject, but TD has another long-ish article out: Digging and Working with Wood