Complaining (Page Action crowner restarted 23th Mar 2015): Padding

As per this thread, I've decided to make this thread about Padding.

To recap, the problem is specifically with the Video Games section. I first proposed that the entries about overworlds in video games are completely incorrect, then we got to the point where we agreed that any sort of gameplay can be considered removable without affecting the main story.

I want to bring it to TRS first before we do anything hasty. We talked about cutting the video games section entirely, but just in case we can hammer out a better decision, let's come to it.

Opening and supporting the idea of cutting the videogame section.

IMO The only entries I would keep would be the full plot detours that were obviously put there as well Padding,.

Also IMO we should remove Fetch Quests from the padding index.

In videogame lingo, I think Backtracking would be the term for overworld padding.

For example, one of the complaints about games with no Fast Travel mechanic is the repetition of having to walk from one location to another back and forth over and over again. This is different if there's something changed for each trip (for example, Metroid Vania games typically avert this because each trip back through an environment is slightly different thanks to your character gaining new abilities. Part of the thrill of those sorts of games is plowing through areas you once had to fight hard through.

However, one version of "padding" that I would argue doesn't quite overlap with backtracking would be like things which received criticism in Alien: Isolation. The game was basically a repetition of "Ripley! Go do X thing! Wait, now go do Y thing!" But before that, do Z thing!" over and over again before getting any actual progression in plot or conflict resolution.

edited 31st Oct '14 11:33:47 AM by KingZeal

Heavy use of Fast Travel is something very new to video games and excessive backtracking itself is just game design failure it is not really padding.

I said that Fast Travel is a common mechanic to avert this trope, not that it is the trope itself.

Also, Padding and bad game design in general are not mutually exclusive points.

But it's still not padding unless it is intentional, it would be the same as labeling Loading Screens as padding.

Intent is nigh impossible to discern for this wiki.

Further, a loading screen is a technical limitation, not something implemented into the game.

But that is still technically 'padding the game'. We have tropes already for Backtracking and Loading Screens they just do not belong as "Padding" as we define it.

The only way video game padding could work is exactly as the first line of the trope defines it "Padding is a moment in a story which could have easily been removed from the plot without affecting the story significantly." but that might directly conflict with Gameplay Mechanics hence why they should probably be chopped, outside of stuff like overly long unskippable repeating cutscenes that do not affect Gameplay Mechanics like say a Transformation Sequence in every battle IE FFXIII.

Now if ya want to split it I guess that would be fine but it is still just Complaining About Tropes You Do Not Like.

edited 1st Nov '14 6:37:09 AM by Memers

My problem is that every example on the page, video game or no, is complaining about plots someone didn't like or arcs someone didn't like.

Oh completely agree on that, every example is just complaining.

Actually maybe we could just chop the whole thing like Backtracking but just leave the subtropes?

edited 1st Nov '14 7:18:07 AM by Memers

That might be a good idea. Most of the subtropes are a lot harder to get a shoehorn into than the main one. At the very least, this page needs massive clean up.

We could list only parodies, such as Spaceballs's flyby.

And one trope idea seems to be in the list of subtropes but does not actually have a trope so that might need to be YKTTWed as one "If the heroes have been captured, have them escape and get recaptured. Lots of action, no plot advancement."

edited 1st Nov '14 7:26:07 AM by Memers

It'd be in favor of cutting most of the examples and leaving only the self-aware parodies. Many of the other examples read like someone complaining that a certain element was too long for their, or the fandom's, tastes. It's a trope open to too much speculation.

Shimaspawn: "...every example on the page, video game or no, is complaining..."

This can be easily be disproven by there being several examples that link to Tropes Are Not Bad.

I do think the example section needs a lot of cleanup, but I'd argue against the sort of Example Sectionectomy proposed in the last few posts.

edited 3rd Nov '14 2:53:48 PM by Prfnoff

A Ctrl-F shows that that trope is linked a whopping 3 times in a page that has 253583 characters in it and linked in 622 articles. Too lazy to count the number of examples that are on the page.

edited 3rd Nov '14 2:58:01 PM by Memers

I can see this in so many ways. And I've probably mentioned a few as well.

I think what is and isn't considered padding in games might be a little too nebulous for this page. I mean, backtracking can add meaningful content even if it's exactly the same as it was before, since just going in the other direction can be different enough. I don't think it's a useful definition to strictly go by the page words that padding is about the story. For an actual story, sure, but games are more than story. Game content is whole different animal.

You can easily describe Shadow of the Colossus as Padding plus huge, climbable bosses. Or you can describe it as an immense and beautiful world to travel through where every step is an experience in itself. Plus huge, climbable bosses. Is that world meaningful content that adds to the understanding of the story?

Exactly. Another example would be Open World mechanics in stuff like Arkham City are technically padding the game's playtime as they do nothing to the story but it is an Open World game you can go do what you want.

A game's padding is really its gameplay.

edited 3rd Nov '14 4:35:48 PM by Memers

Well, not always. Non-skippable repeating scenes, for instance (like long battle animations), are padding. Slow text speed would probably also count. I mean, the first thing I do when I start a Visual Novel is to crank up the text speed to one or two notches below instant, as that's my actual reading speed (when actually reading and not scanning). Most video games don't have that option, so the length is artificially padded.

Text speed options are very common, it's been standard for RP Gs since the SNES era and the hit a button to complete text box has been around for just as long.

Unskippable Repeating Stock Footage is not 'gameplay'.

We have Fake Longevity for that.

While that's a pretty good point, an argument can still be made that it IS padding.

The main difference between Sot C and most other games, though, is that game is pure minimalist. You can stop and enjoy the scenery because every segment of the game takes you somewhere totally different, and there are no enemies to hinder you. The world itself is emphasized because you have nothing else to distract you from it. But even then, I can totally see an argument that this IS padding.

Compare this to, say, a Metroid Vania title where going back over the old places you've been with stronger powers is part of the draw of the game. Once again, there is no clear line between this and padding. Metroid Prime 2 was heavily criticized for its Dark World mechanic because it was just the normal world with constant health draining and more backtracking.

edited 4th Nov '14 6:23:44 AM by KingZeal

That was my point, pretty much exactly.

I think we can apply Padding as a story trope to video game stories and their stories alone. Anything that's pure gameplay should be removed.

Clock is ticking.