Ambiguous Name: Authority Equals Asskicking & Asskicking Equals Authority

I would like to request a minor tweaking to the names of the tropes Authority Equals Asskicking and Asskicking Equals Authority. As they stand, under most forms of logic, you can read them as Authority = Asskicking and Asskicking = Authority, which means they are one and the same, after all, if a=b and b=c, then a=c. This can lead to confusion as to the true meaning and intent of the tropes. As mentioned by Madrugada on the Is this an Example thread (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13543987200A54420100&page=36#877) the meanings are more

Authority Equals Asskicking: I'm in charge, therefore I can kick your ass.

Asskicking Equals Authority:I can kick your ass, therefore I'm in charge.

So, I would like to ask instead of "equals" a different term to better imply the conditional relationship ship the tropes have in mind. So maybe Asskicking begets Authotity, or a simple version of Madrugaga's explanation, "If Asskicking, then Authority" and "If Authority then Asskicking".

The fact people are confused and seek to use Is This An Example thread to help understand which one applies shows confussion which might be better handled if this simple change happens.

Valid points and a reasonable solution. The old names would need to be kept as redirects, though, due to inbounds but the wicks could be corrected. It will be a biggish wick correction job but that's no reason to leave the ambiguity and we've done bigger ones.

I'd like to see a wick check, because I'm not sure there's actually a problem here. "Equals" is often used as a synonym for "causes, grants, begets" (whether it should be used in that way is beyond the scope of this site), so it just seems like a change for the sake of change.

This is just a minor complaint, though, since if this goes through then we could even use the site-wide search and replace to fix it. Obviously Eddie would have to approve that particular move, but since the new name wouldn't even upset alphabetization, I don't see why he wouldn't.

The problem connects with the true definition of "equals", which is "the same as". In that sense, that would make the two tropes redundant, but they are not. The word "equals" just doesn't belong.

How about "Authority Means Asskicking" and "Asskicking Means Authority"? It's a less formal way of saying it than "begets" and more clearly describes the causal relation between the two.

That's the exact same problem as "equals," though. Arguably even worse.

Thunder, while that is a good suggestion, I have issue with "means" because it has over seven different possible definitions, from contemplations, intending for a particular purpose, a form of implication, to bring something as a result, a description of intentions, and so on. see here.

So, implies or denotes are more contemporary words that could be used instead of begets.

Discar, your wick check:

Asskicking Equals Authority found in: 1377 articles.

Authority Equals Asskicking found in: 2496 articles.

The problem is the ambiguity of using Equals (The same as) when the trope is about causality, not simply similarity. We need a word or words there that emphasize the causality: A because B, B because A; not just the conjunction (A and B, B and A).

Isoycrazy, a wick check is looking at the actual wicks to see what proportion of them are incorrect and how they're incorrect, not just how many there are. The rule of thumb is to look at as many randomly chosen wicks as equal the square root of the total number of wicks, or 50 of them, whichever is the larger number. (If there are fewer than 50, check all of them). In this case, both of them need to have 50 randomly chosen wicks checked for proper use.

edited 16th Oct '14 8:15:43 PM by Madrugada

See How to Do a Wick Check.

On the wider subject, I'm not convinced there's misuse, but if there is, I'd suggest replacing "equals" with "from", to give us Asskicking From Authority and Authority From Asskicking. That makes it clear that you get one as a result of having the other, ie, "asskicking comes from authority" and "authority comes from asskicking".

Discar: using "equals" to mean "causes" is certainly a common general use. But on the wiki, it is more often used to mean "accompanies" or "goes along with" with no implication of causality. The first ten tropes returned on a search of the site for "equals" are :

• Main/Authority Equals Asskicking (causal relationship)
• Main/Asskicking Equals Authority (causal relationship)
• Main/Death Equals Redemption (temporal but not necessarily casual)
• Main/Redemption Equals Death (temporal but not necessarily causal)
• Main/Beauty Equals Goodness (equivalence; not causal)
• Main/Intelligence Equals Isolation (equivalence, not causal)
• Main/Insane Equals Violent (equivalence, not causal)
• Main/Sex Equals Love (equivalence, not causal)
• Main/Language Equals Thought (equivalence, possibly aspects of causality)
• Main/Computer Equals Monitor (equivalence, not causal)

We've pretty firmly established a naming convention that uses "Equals" to indicate "equivalence without need for causality"

I'd suggest Leaders Kick Most Asses and Asskicking For Higher Standing.

I don't think pointing out the definitions of the words matter if the tropes still work with the names they have.

My first thought is the word should be "implies". I had no second thought on the matter.

Other possibilities to replace "equals": "begets", "leads to", or "brings". I'm not sure I like the "from" ones because it requires the order to be reversed.

Edit: What about "makes"? Along the same lines of Might Makes Right and Right Makes Might, which have a similar relationship. Although I guess Authority Makes Asskicking sounds kind of clunky, so maybe not. . .

Edit2: Maybe "becomes"?

edited 16th Oct '14 11:08:24 PM by Pig_catapult

"Becomes" implies transformation, though; if asskicking becomes authority, you are no longer an asskicker, you're just an authority.

Good point. Maybe "gives you"?

I'll be asking for a wick check here, since I am not sure if it's a problem. Not sure what other name I would pick, though.

• Leaders Are Ass Kickers
• Leaders Are Stronger

and then

• An Ass Kicker Shall Lead Them,
• Ass Kicking Your Way To The Top (a bit wordy)
• Respect The Asskicker

edited 17th Oct '14 12:39:28 AM by acrobox

I just set up a sandbox with the articles that has wicks to both Asskicking Equals Authority and Authority Equals Asskicking, if someone wants to do a separate wick check of that: Asskick Authority Dups

There are 444 such pages.

I kind of like "begets".

Nearing the end of page 1 and this is all still based on merely "I think there is a problem".

Seriously, why even have this discussion before the wick check?

I really don't think it'll be an issue.

I've never had a problem with the names of these tropes. I suppose using "begets" instead of "equals" might make them slightly clearer, but are people actually getting confused by the current names?

If "X (connecting word) Y" would be confusing, I suggest stop using the pattern.