Matti23
As you may have noticed I went a little crazy with formatting, just playing around with what I found on this site today [1]
. I was wondering what you thought of my alternate history had any advice to improve it (it's my first AH so it may be a bit sketchy):
Point of Divergence
The Point of Divergence was the failure of Genghis Khan to breach the Great Wall Gate in his campaign against the Jin. In this timeline the general in charge of a Great Wall Gate (who opened it IRL), decided not to open the gate. After a prolonged campaign against the Jin the Mongols were forced into a peace agreement.After this debacle Genghis Khan decided to try going west instead. It should be noted that at that time the horde had suffered heavy casualties including several of his best generals and one of Genghis Khan's sons. Much mayhem in Europe ensued (like in IRL), but due to the weakened state of the Mongol Horde, Constantinople wasn't sacked and Europe was less severely affected.
After more than a century Mongolian Empire eventually collapsed. A remnant did survive in West Asia and Far North Asia. They would have collapsed with the rest of the empire but were held together by force.
Paranoid about the Mongols returning, the Ottoman Empire and its successor nations concentrated their forces on keeping the Remnant of the Mongolian Empire at bay. After the horror of the Mongolian Empire the European nations appreciated having a buffer between themselves and the Mongolians and did not antagonize or attack the Ottomans.
Rise of China
In this timeline China had explored beyond its borders and was expanding its sphere of influence. This included trading goods and tech to the North Americas and East Africa, which accelerated their technological advancement. IRL it is speculated by Chinese scholars that at one point the government was not ruled by the majority Han ethnicity and may have chosen not to continue exploration following the voyages of Zheng He because this would have made it difficult to control the majority Han population. In this timeline this did not happen.North America
Prior to the European arrival on America, contact between Asian explorers and communities on the west coast of North America is established and explorers travel further inland from there. The trade of technology and ideas leads to accelerated technological growth. The effect is slow at first but over the centuries changes begin to occur such as large scale farms being established by these communities, their population booms, their metallurgical and production abilities improve. Gunpowder technology and weapons begin to enter north America over the centuries via trade.A group of 53 nations, calling themselves the 53 Nations form a general community. They are not allies and do indeed compete against each other. They consider themselves separate from the rest of North America which is less advanced.
At the time the Europeans first discovered America members of the 53 Nations had already erected defenses within the Rocky Mountains including fortresses at key passes, stone pillboxes and elevated firing positions carved out of the mountain walls. Armies in the region were armed with rifles and primitive hand grenades [2]. The richest and most influential nations at that time had a small amount of flamethrowers [3], and primitive landmines [4] although the design and production information was released to the rest of the 53 nations as time went on.
East African Collective
A similar process to North America happens here with the trade of technology increasing the capabilities of the East African nations over the centuries. They share a similar dynamic as the North Americans, competing against each other but considering themselves separate from the West Africans. Development is not even with the nations in the general area of Eritrea, Ethiopia, Somalia, Kenya and Tanzania accounting for 2/3 of the production capability and wealth of the collective.Other nations in the collective can be thought of occupying the general area around and south of a line extending from what we know as Lake Malawi to Doringbaai. Technology levels for the northernmost nations in the collective were comparable to North America.
Arrival in Africa
Following the horrors of the Mongolian Empire Europe recovered and started exploring. They successfully colonized West Africa but found highly developed nations occupying East Africa who resisted colonization. A bloody stalemate formed between the East Africans and a coalition of European nations called the European Strategic Aliiance (ESA).The East Africans were not coordinated at first but started to unite after roughly a third of their collective land holdings (mostly in the south) were lost.
Arrival in South America
Exploration in the Americas by the Europeans did not go well. An early expedition to South America of only a few hundred men was outnumbered and tortured for information. The South Americans were horrified to learn that the hundreds that had killed so many of their number were part of a greater civilization of millions. IRL Cortez was outnumbered and would have lost if not for the help of Dona Marina, a native woman who helped him play the different groups in South America against each other. Neither of them exist in this timeline. The arrival of the Europeans IRL also coincided with an Aztec prophecy, but in this timeline they have arrived too early.A second, larger wave of Europeans landed on South America, causing a massive loss of life and land. A number of South Americans attempted to explore northwards for a number of reasons. Some went to find allies with which to defend against the Europeans whilst others went to find other civilizations to trade with. They found the 53 Nations west of the Rocky Mountains and traded with them, sharing information about the Europeans and gaining gun tech.
Arrival in North America
European expansion in North America went as IRL until they hit the Rocky Mountains where they encountered American Indians armed with guns and cannons with densely populated cities. The Rockies were heavily fortified. The 53 Nations had observed the Europeans steadily expanding across North and South America with great consternation. Although constant stream of refugees from the expansion seemed like an omen the 53 Nation's leaders assured their people that they would be different. Many of the nations believed that the defenses in the Rocky Mountains was sufficient to hold back any attack.Three events shattered this illusion of safety. The Comanche, one of their most populous nations with the highest production capacity was attacked and eventually destroyed by the advancing Europeans. The illusion that that they were somehow above the notice of the Europeans was shattered. The remaining nations were still in denial. They claimed that the Comanche did not have significant holdings in the Rocky Mountains and that defenses there would allow them to hold out.
The fall of Cheyenne and Lakota followed with the vaunted Rocky Mountain defenses crumbling before the advance of the ESA. Realizing they were all in mortal danger an alliance was formed and a war between the League of Nations and 50 Nations began, resulting in a bloody and protracted stalemate (a few years into this war the ESA started to become concerned with the huge drain on their resources on two fronts).
The alternate World War begins
This world's rough equivalent of the Opium War, instead of being a decisive victory for the Europeans, became an alternate World War 1 with the European Strategic Alliance eventually fighting everyone else. This included China and its allies (which eventually form United Asia, an EU like federation of states), the East African Collective, The 50 Nations, resistance groups in Lo N held America and Africa and the South Americans.The Ottomans were the only neutral party during this conflict and the Mongolians joined United Asia.
Hopelessly over committed the ESA surrendered and negotiated a peace agreement, all colonies in Africa and Asia were lost with forces from various foreign powers getting close enough to Europe to launch attacks on the European homeland itself (although several beachheads where formed in Europe none of them were held for more than a year). America lost all of its land up to the Mississippi river to the Aztecs and 50 Nations, Canada lost the western two-thirds of its country to the FN and Alaska was taken by Greater Korea.
Rise of Germany
The economy of the Lo N's member states had been completely destroyed by the enormous cost of the fighting and collapsed soon after. A small group of nations in Western Europe unified together over the next 20 years to weather the disaster, forming Germany.The other Western European nations were threatened by its existence and attempted to block them economically as well try to split them up. Given their weakened state this was attempted without the use of all out war. Observing the maneuvering of the other European nations Germany was concerned that they may one day resort to violent means and sought a means to protect itself.
Germany attempted to secretly secure a non-aggression pact with Russia (which it had every intention of keeping as if it came to it, the German chancellor was not confident that Russia could be taken). Germany signed a non-aggression pact with the USA and played on their desire not to get involved in another costly and disastrous war, offering them trade and perks for not getting involved and presenting an image to the American people via PR managers of peaceful coexistence.
Germany formed an alliance with Britain under the covert agreement that if it came to war in Europe, Britain and Germany would be allowed to take whatever land could be captured, effectively splitting Western Europe under their control. This was a contingency for a worst case scenario and was meant to be insurance against the enemies of Germany. The Germany chancellor hoped dearly that it would never need to be used.
Despite Germany's best attempts to keep the agreements with Russia and Britain secret, spies for the other powers were able to discover them. As you may have expected, the other Western powers didn't react well to the existence of a plan that called for their land to be split up. They interpreted it as a sign of an imminent attack and launched a preemptive strike against Germany, as well as deploying their forces to defend against Britain. A few years into the European war both sides were falling apart and desperate with soldiers running low on ammo, supplies and food.
The Germanic-British alliance eventually won the war and divided Western Europe between them. Canada became split between the British and French portions. Unwilling to help with an invasion of Britain, British Canada declared independence, joined Britain's side in the war and fought French allied Canada. The massive size of what remained of Canada made such a campaign difficult. The official French allied government of Canada was shattered with the help of Britain and Germany after a long campaign, with Germany seizing a small amount of land. Eventually German allied forces declared victory although this was premature and far from the truth.
The French allied Canadian government may have been gone, but the land was far from under the control of German allied forces. A myriad of resistance groups operated in the land, resulting in the new Canadian government having difficulty enforcing laws in troubled regions. Police in these areas was rare and military forces feared to travel through various regions. Rebel forces from these regions were occasionally brazen enough to launch attacks into territory held by Germany and its allies, occasionally seizing small amounts of land.
The Saharan Union
During the time of the conflict the Ottoman Empire had fallen to a revolution. It was eventually succeeded by the Saharan Union a decade after the European conflict ended but by then it was too late. Most of Turkey had been lost to Germany who occupied the land under the guise of restoring order to the lawless area. Germany at that point comprised it conquered parts of Western Europe, small amounts of Canada and most of Turkey.Alliance Against Germany
5 years after Germany's victory United Asia became unstable and was no longer considered a threat, freeing various nations such as Russia, America and Sahar to concentrate on Germany. At that time America, the Saharan Union and Russia became concerned about Germany's rise and had formed the Sahar-Russo-American alliance to limit this. Heavy fortifications had been built along the Russian border to defend Germany against possible attacks.This story followed the rise and fall the Mongolian Empire, then the Lo N. It now follows the rise of Germany, United Asia and finally America.
Wondering how likely America is to ascend to being a great power in this setting or if I should just have biggest powers be the United Asia, Germany and Sahar?
edited 26th Nov '15 7:33:38 PM by matti23
Heh, we've had about 100 "Could Germany have won the war" threads. I always come down on the side that, no, they couldn't. Reason is that Great Britain isn't going to sit around waiting for Germany to become a super-power. In any scenario in which Germany expands beyond German speaking areas, they go to war on whatever side is fighting Germany at that time. There is no amount of trade Germany could offer the US that would replace Great Britain and Canada, so the US backs up the UK.
The only question I have is: What is the Ottoman Empire doing around during WWII?
Party Crasher
Yeah, i'm also a bit confused regarding which World War we are talking about.
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Goes from 'mostly implausible' to 'completely implausible', and largely because you haven't justified anything (which makes constructive criticism difficult - there's nothing to 'construct' on). I'm going to assume this takes place before 1950, for tech and logistics reasons.
Germany being a careful conquistador? No, war and takeovers are simply too chaotic to make a careful takeover an option. (Crimea was something of a fluke, if you want a recent example.)
Too much reliance on political solutions. Any single country amassing that much power in that short a time (not land, power) will be seen as too much of a threat to be easily trusted. I suspect you're not old enough to remember Japan in the 1980s, but that's one of the more high-profile examples in modern times.
Germany - I'll call it the 'Teutonic Empire' from here on, if you don't mind - is too far away to offer meaningful trade with the US; the logistics simply don't work. I don't know what you mean by 'perks', so I can't really comment on that.
PR isn't everything. A shiny PR image means jack-all if photographs from Europe make it back to the US (particularly in that era).
I'm not sure how a Britain-Teutonic Empire alliance would work, but I'd lean towards it not. Again, that much power in that short a time looks really suspicious.
...I can't see how Germany could ever conquer Canada, if they decided they couldn't take Russia. (It's very surprising to me that you even included Canada in this at all. It's too big, mostly - how would the Teutonic Empire get its forces into British Columbia from the East without the US getting suspicious?)
America, the Ottoman Empire, and Russia wouldn't sit on their haunches for 10 years. In fact, pretty much no part of the second paragraph is plausible without something world-changing - like mass mind control.
You're listing events without explaining what lead up to them, and that makes it very difficult to find them plausible. It'd be more effective to ask about ways to make them plausible, if you're looking to polish a scenario for a story or game or something.
You've also ignored or forgotten economics (wars are expensive to start and new property is expensive to maintain), logistics (the primary reason Canada won't work), and mass refugee exoduses. I'd look into those, for a better idea of how to craft a scenario like this.
I wrote that while trying to be polite and respectful, and I sincerely apologize if it didn't come across that way.
Matti23
My initial post only had two paragraphs about the European war. That might not have enough to tell what's going on here so I added more info from the story to clarify.
Demarquis, the Ottoman empire spends the World War building up with the intent to be the dominant world power after everyone else has weakened themselves. During the European war (the one involving Germany against Western Europe) they were planning on seizing some territory from the weakened nations in Europe. Didn't work out for the Ottomans, their empire collapsed before the war ended and was succeeded by the Saharan Union.
Great Britain was crippled after the fall of the Lo N. Most of its resources were invested in their overseas colonies. It was concerned with rebuilding its shattered nation. Around the time the war broke out there was a famine sweeping Britain and many of its remaining ships were just rusting in their ports. Its just picked a side it thinks will win so it can be safe.
Most of the countries that formed Germany focused their wealth within their borders and contributed the least to the World War so their military was in the best shape, they can kind of live off the fat from the golden age of the Lo N. You do have a good point about them not just sitting on the sidelines and I might rewrite it so Britain picks a side. I'd like to hear what you think Britain would have done and how it would have affected the war?
Logo P, due to the point of divergence being so far back this war resembles no world war IRL.
Deus Deno, good point about Canada, its huge. I'm rewriting it so Canada just pull out of the war when Western Europe falls. I appreciate your feedback and am wondering how the situation could turn out to make it more plausible? p.s. Teutonic Empire is a pretty cool name for the German Empire, can I borrow that one?
At the time of the war America was afraid of the Aztec, Mayan and New Incan empires who have all vowed to help the UNAN destroy America and are building fortifications along the Mississippi river. Prior to its destabilization United Asia was allied with the UNAN and were selling them weapons. There was also a garrison of UA soldiers near the Mississippi River. The other European nations didn't want to get involved and refused to help. The perks referred to is a promise that if anyone attacks America that Germany will help by sending weapons, money and soldiers. Germany has little ability to honor that bargain but are gambling (with the help of some very limited intelligence from spies in China and Korea) that by the time somebody makes a move against America that they will have conquered Western Europe and be strong enough to honor their bargain. I am starting to wonder whether this is too crazy a gamble or not.
The PR referred to is convincing the people of America that they can honor their bargain and are a useful ally. Pictures of a place where there is not yet famine and the streets are not filled with hungry rioters help the cause. They also hide evidence that they are fast hurtling toward the exact same situation (they are living off the fat of the golden days of the Lo N). I do however concede that the war pictures from Western Europe would be pretty awful and might unsettle the Americans and that it probably would be pretty hard to conceal the deteriorating reserves of Germany.
Russia is preoccupied with the United Asian Army massing soldiers and building fortifications near its borders at Stavropol (captured during the world war) and consider them a greater threat than Germany. I was wondering whether there's a more plausible way that Russia would deal with the twin threats of Germany and United Asia other than by focusing United Asia?
The Ottoman Empire is paranoid about and preoccupied by United Asia, especially because the Mongolian Empire (their old enemy) is part of it. They are concentrating on defending against an invasion from the east.
The original logic behind Germany being a careful conquistador was that they were running out of supplies and food and the leadership knew that they would only get one chance and a small window to act before everything ran out. I do concede that it might instead have made them more reckless and desperate.
I do acknowledge that the Western European powers probably wouldn't sit around and let Germany amass so much power without doing something. I'm curious to know how you think this situation would turn out if the German Chancellor tried this? I'm also curious what you think the winning strategy for Germany in this situation might be? (the Western European nations are eyeing Germany's reserves and will attack no matter what Germany does)
edited 26th Nov '14 12:14:52 AM by matti23
Well, that was a rather massive edit. It's going to take me some time to absorb all that.
Party Crasher
All of these take place in roughly what year/century?
Honestly, it sounds more like an Alternate Universe than an Alternate History.
edited 29th Sep '14 8:24:21 AM by LogoP
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
One where people demonstrate much greater coordination and a capacity for long-range rational planning in the face of colonial exploitation than they did in real life.
Trans Siberian Anarchestra (it/they)
Why does the League of Nations exist in the first place in this timeline? It only existed in our history because (caution: oversimplifying) US idealists took advantage of the shakiness of the empires following WWI (overcoming the obstacles of their own isolationist policies and their allies' possessiveness of their colonies). Neither the shakiness nor the US exist in this history, from what I can tell.
The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable
...Should we assume that the countries in this AU (I agree with LogoP - this is too massive a change to be an Alternate History) have the same or similar outputs to their real-world counterparts? And in what era? This still sounds like it's pre-1950.
If that's the case, America's industrial capacity should be factored in more (towards the end of WWII, we could've soloed the world that way), and the British Empire/Commonwealth should be completely smashed, as there's simply not enough resources in Europe to keep up. This doesn't include the tech advancements, either.
I would also say that this history assumes really Easy Logistics and manufacturing. Most of the nations in it simply didn't have the industry, or didn't have it at a massive enough scale, to do what you're having them doing. (The reason most of those battles that cripple the League of Nations were curbstomps IRL, is very largely due to this.) But because it's so necessary to the plotline, you're going to have to come up with some sort of handwave - else, it's too implausible to keep.
Here's an example. Just because the Early Americans have guns, doesn't mean they can make gunpowder (would the captured soldiers have known how to?) or work iron in the quantities necessary for it to all work, let alone have access to the materials to do so. And IRL, guns of those era would've been too loud and too slow to reload for effective one-man hunting; bows and arrows are comparatively very stealthy and effective, regardless of what Team Fortress 2 might claim. So why would they create, retain, and store this much firepower, when they've only very rarely met the threat they're supposed to be used against?
Also, as 'Native American' didn't exist as a common demonym until the 1960s, 'United Native American Nations' is an odd choice for a state name (it sounds like a bunch of racist American militias banded together and seceded from the US, and even now it's not difficult to find dumbass White Americans who call themselves 'Native Americans'). I'd go with something like 'The Two Hundred Nations' or whatever that number is.
But for your specific questions...
None of this works with an intact Britain, but smashing it would just attract even more unwanted attention to what Germany is doing and bring America into the Great War. You might have it collapse under the weight of its colonies, which gain independence far earlier than in the real world thanks to non-British (read: German) support behind the independence movements. This would help explain (albeit not all that well - someone else can probably do better than me here) why Canada is so friendly to Germany afterwards.
Go ahead and use 'Teutonic Empire' - just make sure you Google it so you're not stepping on any toes when you do.
America is too big industrially to gamble against (this version of Germany seems to be clever enough to not discount America's industrial proclamations as 'propaganda'). The 'war bargain' would probably be that world's 'Peace For Our Time'. However, I have a hard time telling just how much of WWII-era America is still part of America in this new setting, and that might be enough to weaken it.
Russia's only alternative against Germany and United Asia would be to set them against each other. I'm thinking False Flag sabotage here.
If you mean the German Chancellor without naming names to avoid invoking Godwin's law - ...well, I doubt it would work. Without closely examining history, it wouldn't be too odd if one of his real-life advisers actually suggested this course of action, only for him to ignore it anyway! This whole history requires someone else in power, I think.
Germany cannot win this scenario through military might alone. I don't think it would survive without seriously building up its stature in the eyes of the world, something like an extremely widespread - even worldwide - Marshall Plan, perhaps. The other nations can eye Germany all they want - their populations will be less inclined to act against it this way.
...In short, the Risk approach to world domination is more doomed to fail, the more options you add besides a military one.
Party Crasher
Also, the Mongol Empire surviving to the 20st century sounds... odd. Considering that the Empire broke-up almost immediately after Genghis Khan's death. It was a nation simply too large and diverse to be sustainable.
Unless of course the "Mongol Empire" is surviving a Yuan Dynasty which managed to curb chinese influence and retain its mongolian character & leadership. Or at least managed to achieve some sort of compromise.
edited 4th Oct '14 6:26:53 AM by LogoP
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The League of Nations didn't exist solely or even primarily because of US idealism...
I mean oversimplifying doesn't begin to cover it, an international organisation like that doesn't pop up because of idealists in one country.
edited 30th Sep '14 1:21:57 AM by editerguy
Matti23
It has been noticed that the choice of title for this forum may have limited its scope somewhat. It was intended to be a general forum where everybody could post their AH stuff. Would anyone mind if the the title of this forum was changed from "Alternate History Military Tactics, Politics and Strategy" to "Alternate history scenarios, ideas, general questions and miscellaneous points"?
edited 2nd Oct '14 7:57:12 AM by matti23
Go for it.
Matti23
Most of the edits to the top are just formatting but I made a few changes.
Deus Deno, the Mongol Empire is led by this universe's equivalent of the Yuan dynasty. Interesting idea about the Marshall Plan it looks like it might work. Might change the story to work it in. Made a change to Britain, now the agreement is that if war breaks out Germany and Britain can take whatever parts of Western Europe they can capture. Would that be enough to sway Britain towards the German cause?
Good point on the naming. America is called Inova in universe (India Nova). The UNAN is now the 50 Nations. Changed it so the South Americans didn't get any tech from the Europeans, the guns are from North America, which in turn came from centuries of trade with China.
The alternate World War starts around 1820. Due to the survival of a number of civilizations and a greater amount of people in the world not being starving, wiped out or enslaved (some of who were thus able to contribute to the advancement of technology) the technology level is 80 years ahead of IRL. Is this too great of a technology advancement? At the time the European War began America had 1/8 of the industrial capacity it had during IRL WW 2 (it was still recovering from the World War that it had lost previously).
I agree that the Lo N's industrial capacity is huge. Might revise it so that the Lo N overruns the 50 Nations and the East African Collective, but resistance fighters continue on with the backing of Asian backers. Is the 50 nations and EAC developing Chinese 1000 to 1200 era flamethrowers and landmines after 500-600 years of trading and acquiring tech from Asia plausible? Both power blocks were actively trying to advance as fast as they could in as many areas as they could at that time to stay competitive with other nations.
Demarquis, I agree that these nations are quite unusually coordinated so I made a change so that by the time the large alliances formed quite a large amount of damage had already been done.
Noaqiyuem, the alternate Lo N (which is nothing like the IRL Lo N) was formed out of a paranoia of foreign powers and the attitudes to other races at the time. The Lo N were convinced that all other foreign powers would eventually act like they did, taking whatever they wanted from other nations by force (such as in West Africa and North America). This lead to a belief that all the other large power blocks were a threat. It became a self fulfilling prophecy, with aggressive maneuvering to limit the strength of other nations leading to hostility and war.
Interesting point about the other European powers not permitting Germany to gain so much power. I've amended the story so the European powers finding out about their deals is precisely what sets off the war.
Logo P, I agree that the differences in this universe are huge, might consider defining it alternate universe.
What do you think of the changes? Any further suggestions for this AH? If you have any AH stuff of your own feel free to submit below.
edited 4th Oct '14 8:54:21 AM by matti23
This AU looks more and more like 'what if everyone had guns/equivalent tech levels'. The mental gymnastics you've got to perform in order to justify everything are... a little astounding. I'm having serious trouble keeping up, and I appreciate the challenge! ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Some of the landmass-encompassing collective states would require a level of cartography that may not have existed at the time. I'm not sure how relevant it is, but there's a book called 'A History of the World in 12 Maps' or something like that, that may or may not be useful to you.
I like 'India Nova' as a name. (Though I would still double-check to make sure 'India' and 'Nova' come from the same language. If that language has a different name for 'India', it'd sound odd.)
1820 is difficult to imagine in tech terms. It's also irrelevant, as the world you've created here is so different from what we know that you could either A) pick any date at random and justify it as you have for 1820, or B) pick a specific date that is easier to imagine in real-world terms. On the second point, I'd like to suggest that the US Civil War was 1861-65; the conditions in it were more than hellish enough to compare a slightly lower-tech World War to, so I think 1865 would give a better connection to real-world history.
The bit with the flamethrowers and land mines seems plausible, if they're relatively low-tech, but they're largely defensive measures and are limited by the terrain they're used in and materials available to the designers.
Y'know, if the League of Nations here is that different from the IRL one (it has actual relevancy for one), you might as well call it something different. The 'Assembled Nations of the World'... abbreviates the same way as American Ninja Warrior, so that might be out (or in!)... There's also no justification for it forming so early, particularly if you've accelerated events so they happen a century or so earlier than IRL.
Incidentally, the new formatting really helps in keeping things coherent.
(Now, going back through the newly edited scenario...)
- IRL China, at least through the Opium Wars, was self-sufficient enough that their trade resulted in deficits. Even with the non-Han government, what prompted them to explore so much? (Something as simple as 'curiosity' would do, though.) I have a hard time seeing Chinese explorers and traders getting to North America across the Pacific Ocean so easily, though, so you may need to justify them as far better sailors and shipwrights than IRL during the ...1600s?
- Gunfire in mountain passes like in the Rocky Mountains leads to... well, have you ever seen Mulan, and specifically the reason she has the largest kill count of any Disney character? I'd stick to crossbows and other low-observable weaponry there. (Or even set up avalanche traps... and if they're effective enough, the explorers heading West might never become aware of the 53 Nations' presence.)
- As with 'North America', the name 'Africa' does not appear to be native to the continent; 'East African Collective' is probably just the English word for it. (In hindsight, it's kinda odd that everyone IRL just rolls with the Euro-centric names the continents have. Some ISO thing, I suppose.)
- There's probably some superstition or myth about men arriving from beyond the sea in that era of South America, rather than that Aztec prophecy.
- Any drain on resources from a protracted stalemate between the 50 Nations and the League could be made up somewhat with the territory they've claimed (especially if the Comaches were that productive - that territory and capacity got taken over by the 'Europeans'). I have trouble seeing how the 50 Nations and the Aztec Alliance could muster enough force to drive the Americans back past the Mississippi - specifically, how did they get the forces there in time?
- 'Greater Korea'...?
- ...Ah. 'Germany' here is more like the IRL EU rather than the IRL Germany. You should make that clearer (and in general, when there are large differences between the AU and IRL - I'd just use 'AU' and 'IRL' as prefixes). I don't see why they decided 'Germany' was a good name for the new nation, though. Under these conditions, Germany may not even need to present a good PR image, because of how its formation is justified (and a little similar to how the USA originally formed - the 13 original states were very fractured, to the point that the sense that we were a single nation didn't really solidify until after the Civil War).
- The agreement between Germany and Britain does not seem to be as fractious as it sounds (especially since every other nation would have to be aware of the conditions that would lead to it, and were probably plotting the same thing anyway!). This sort of thing is why the IRL League was created in the first place, and with the war-torn background of AU-Earth a similar diplomatic clearinghouse should've been established already.
- This version of Canada sounds like an AU Mad Max. Nice.
- Very little of this AU appears to be concerned with naval power beyond transportation of ground troops, and air power seems non-existent. If you want America - or any nation - to rise, I'd cover it from that angle.
Geez man, what are you planning to do with this background? It's rather complex...
Party Crasher
Question: This "Ottoman Empire", what & how much land does it cover? Does it reach into the heart of Europe like its RL counterpart did? Does it dominate the Arabian Penisula and N. Africa, too?
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Deus Denuo's post is pretty comprehensive and I agree with pretty much all of it, so I'll just critique something s/he didn't mention.
IRL, European colonialism was least effective in East Africa, particularly Ethiopia. Ethiopia was only ever briefly occupied by Mussolini, otherwise it was essentially independent until the Soviets managed to get a friendly communist government installed in the 70s. This is mostly because Ethiopia was outward-looking very early and consequently it got a head start over the rest of Africa in amassing Western weapons and technology (e.g. railways) through trade. It seems a bit awkward making East Africa more powerful than it was in real life, but then have them doing worse militarily.
ok, what alternate names you use for your countries?
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Matti23
Thanks for the feedback Deus Deno. I will look into the book, it sounds pretty informative. India Nova seems to have appeared on a map depicting America prior to Amerigo Vespucci's name being used (can't seem to find the reference at this time).
Might consider shifting the tech level and actual date closer to 1865, it seems like an interesting time period to set it in.
The Assembled Nations of the World sounds like a pretty good name. Could I use it? it's a bit better than the other possibilities: European Assembly or European Strategic Alliance.
Curiosity was a big factor for exploration in China. Might consider giving them a bit of a tech boost resulting from not falling to the Mongolian Empire and the lack of an exploration phobic minority government. Does that seem a bit more plausible?
Gunfire in the Rocky Mountains does seem very dangerous. Shifting the weapons of the 50 nations so they use more crossbows and other low observable weaponry. Avalanche traps are a good idea, I could have the Europeans eventually find out about the FN from Comanche, Cheyenne and Lakota prisoners.
The story has been changed so that the EAC is now the Xeebaha Beerkiisa. Currently doing a bit of research to see what might be a good name for Germany in this setting. Current possibilities are Piudiskaz or Volks Reich.
Wondering whether an Asia that had at least kept up, and in some cases exceeded European production capacity and tech would be able to launch an attack onto West America, landing troops in FN held territory, or having the European defenses sabotaged by FN slave workers to help the invasion. Would an Asian presence on top of the other powers in North and South America help to push the border to Mississippi?
Korea gained a thin strip of territory with the help of its allies along the eastern coast of Russia during the AU World War. They were called Greater Korea following this. Korea and its allies were allowed to hold territory in Alaska (not called this in universe) as part of a deal struck in order for the FN to receive help from Asia.
Thanks for the feedback about considering air power. Seems like a helpful factor in the rise of America.
The AU Ottoman Empire reaches into the heart of Europe and dominates the Arabian Peninsula too. They have many holdings in N. Africa as well.
Editerguy, in this universe the Xeebaha Beerkiisa (changed name from EAC) was attacked because they were starting to exert their influence over their western neighbours. When the ESA (changed name from Lo N) started to advance too far east the XB released weapons and funding to populations in the region to allow them to resist. In this universe they fight a unified Europe. What do you think of these events and would it be enough to result in Ethiopia being worse off AU?
Unknowing, some of the names are Aotearoa (Maori governed New Zealand), Yolngu (one of the many Aboriginal Australian Nations that just survived the World War and are rebuilding), China is still Zhong Guo in Chinese but the anglicisation is now Zhongan. Some members of the FN are Shasta and Wintu. Cuba has two nations on it: Arawak and Guanajatabey.
edited 5th Oct '14 7:07:52 AM by matti23
Party Crasher
If the Yuan Empire is still in power, then Korea doesn't really have much potential to evolve into anything other than a particularly powerful vassal.
Also, what's the status of Japan? Are they still under sakoku? It seems logical to me that they'd still be. Considering the presence of such powerful neighbors & the lack of strong Western intrusion into East Asia.
And, finally, a couple of things about the Ottomans. If their holdings are those you describe then I think you should shed some light into their relations with Germany. The dominant power in north-western Europe. They could either be arch-enemies or uneasy partners. Especially if the Ottomans still control the whole (or most) of Balkans.
Keep in mind that if oil has been discovered into Ottoman territories, that makes them much more powerful than they ever were IRL.
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Matti23
Wondering what you thought of this explanation. In my AU, after the failure to breech the Great Wall Gate under Genghis Khan, the Mongolians were never able to take over China. They actually lost a little more land as part of the peace agreement. Unlike IRL Korea which had very few large powers nearby at the time to pick from other than the Yuan, AU Korea had an option to side with China and chose to do so. Due to the peace agreement, a large amount of the Korean northern border at that time was with China, helping China to back Korea up.
The AU Yuan did share similarities with the IRL Yuan in the areas of mathematics, medicine, printing and publishing. They AU Yuan also formed a strong and stable government within their borders.
Japan was still under Sakoku during the AU World War. As the story advances past towards the information age they eventually lower this stance. Japan is a minor power in Asia.
The Ottomans and the nations of Europe (including the precursor nations of Germany) had an uneasy partnership, especially with the Ottomans forming a buffer between the Mongolian Empire Remnant and the nations of Europe.
Oil was discovered in the lands of the Ottoman Empire, making them indeed a powerful force to be reckoned with. They used this situation, alongside the weakening of the other nations of the world after the AU WW to buy up resources such as mines and consolidate their position so that they could maintain and even strengthen their position as everyone rebuilt. The Balkans were lost as well as most of Turkey to the Germans.
Their successor, the Sub Saharan Coalition was also a very powerful nation due to their oil wealth and was an extremely valuable ally of America at first. As the SSC rebuilt their nation following the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the fight to reunify the people they became so powerful that other nations devoted a great amount of resources to developing green energy limit to their power. They were still officially allied with America and Russia but this was an uneasy partnership. Wondering what you thought of the Ottomans and SSC?
edited 6th Oct '14 5:15:57 AM by matti23
Party Crasher
You lost me for a moment. How were the Balkans & most of Turkey lost when 1) the Ottomans were being seriously amped-up by petromoney, 2) everyone else was in ruins & trying to rebuilt.
Also, how come and they are called the Sub-Sharan Colation when most of their territory should (logically) be located on Northern Africa, the Arabian Penisula and Levant?
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Matti23
I originally planned for the Ottoman empire to be temporarily split up during the revolution, making smaller, easier to conquer factions. Germany had conquered part of Europe a few years prior before they started advancing into previously held Ottoman territory. Just realized the petromoney may make even the smaller factions, and especially Turkey powerful enough to be a trouble to Germany and its allies, I might change it so that the Balkans doesn't fall to Germany. Turkey might remain independent from Germany but be outside the Saharan Union. Turkey and the Balkans might remain as a separate and small power block. An Ottoman Empire remnant, a shadow of its former glory. What do you think of this alternative version of events?
When I said SCC I was referring to a previous draft. When I wrote the initial draft I had that nation conquering down to near the level of Mozambique, Zambia and Angola, so there was a greater area of the SCC south of the Sahara Desert than within and north of it. The "African Union" mentioned in the other post was supposed to be it's southern neighbour, hence why no other factions are mentioned as being present south of the SCC.
I posted a much earlier draft in another forum. Its near the bottom and lot of stuff has changed since then, like some names and America being allied with the Saharan Union now [1].
The name of Germany, the British Empire and the British Canada is the Teutonic Pact. Their opponents in the European War were the EA (European Assembly).
EDIT: Few changes in the story One of these changes is that the Ottoman Empire is no longer a faction. It's a long story but the large empire in the middle east before and during the World War is now the Greater Turkic Khagante.
EDIT: The successor of the large empire mentioned above is no longer the Saharan Union, it's now the Tsr Sma.
edited 17th Jun '16 9:09:01 PM by matti23
Hello everybody,
This is a post for the discussion of ideas, general questions and miscellaneous points in alternate history. This means all things AH can be posted here. Want to post a question about how a country of your choice could take over Europe? Asking some questions about your AH world? Want to propose an AH scenario? All that can go here. You can discuss things from any time period you please.
The guidelines for this forum are similar to the two sci-fi world building forums, to quote:
- When providing a critique of a design or concept, please ensure it is constructive criticism. Similarly, don't just say "That's cool/dumb/makes my head hurt" if you can help it - explain why it's cool/dumb/makes your head hurt.
- Be polite/respectful etc.
Want to discuss Alternate History Weapons, Vehicles and Equipment specifically? A more focused forum can be found here [1]
.
Want to discuss Fantasy? Try this thread for all things Fantasy [2]
or this one [3]
for Fantasy Weapons, Societies, Equipment and Mounts/Vehicles.
The Sci Fi forums can be found here[4]
and here[5]
Now let's begin with the first post
edited 22nd Jul '16 9:14:06 PM by matti23