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edited 11th Oct '14 3:17:52 PM by MarqFJA
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Just for curiosity, there is a place where being Right Wing dont put you at some steps from being another Mussolini? Or a overall damaging force to society?
Watch me destroying my country
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Well, sane places? The center-right in say Germany probably isn't a few steps away from Mussolini. Generally that's only true if the right is crazy.
Well, there's a very big gap between Mussolini and Ted Cruz. Truth be told, even a lot of things Trump proposes are things America did under FDR. So Trump is likely the most level-headed, compassionate fascist in history.
This is Damned by Faint Praise to be sure, but as bad as some GOP politicians are, actual fascism is even eviller than most people realize.
"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
Just because some of Trump's daily contradictory lies are someone close to New Deal policy does not mean that his policy is anything close to FDR, furthermore I would absolutely call him a fascist.
Here are a few traits of Fascist ideologies from Umberto Eco's essay on Ur-Fascism (the eternal traits of fascism):
2. Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism. Both Fascists and Nazis worshiped technology, while traditionalist thinkers usually reject it as a negation of traditional spiritual values. However, even though Nazism was proud of its industrial achievements, its praise of modernism was only the surface of an ideology based upon Blood and Earth (Blut und Boden). The rejection of the modern world was disguised as a rebuttal of the capitalistic way of life, but it mainly concerned the rejection of the Spirit of 1789 (and of 1776, of course). The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.
3. Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action’s sake. Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.
5. Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity. Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks for consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.
6. Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups. In our time, when the old “proletarians” are becoming petty bourgeois (and the lumpen are largely excluded from the political scene), the fascism of tomorrow will find its audience in this new majority.
7. To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country. This is the origin of nationalism. Besides, the only ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies. Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia. But the plot must also come from the inside: Jews are usually the best target because they have the advantage of being at the same time inside and outside. In the US, a prominent instance of the plot obsession is to be found in Pat Robertson’s The New World Order, but, as we have recently seen, there are many others.
12. Since both permanent war and heroism are difficult games to play, the Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters. This is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality). Since even sex is a difficult game to play, the Ur-Fascist hero tends to play with weapons—doing so becomes an ersatz phallic exercise.
There is far more in the article itself but the traits I have quoted in my view describe Trump to a frightening degree, he is Fascist. Just a fascist that is stupid and incompetent and thus cannot overcome powerful Democratic institutions.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
For the most part, that's describing a cult or a mass movement, any cult or mass movement.
Not that I disagree with your premise. But I still contend, his similarity to the historical fascists lies in his: lack of a coherent platform, impulsive policy-making, heavy reliance on appeal to force, egoism, and straw nihilistic attitude.
(Of course, I have already contended that fascism itself wasn't a coherent ideology, just that generation's manifestation of the aforementioned traits).
The cult of personality is also something he has in common with fascist leaders. He tries to make everything about himself, and he's obsessed with personal loyalty.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
I mean, a cult of personality is something that, while is a common trait of fascist systems, is not limited at them at all, Never forget Stalin, never forget him.
edited 12th Dec '17 4:09:33 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
Sure, and that's why aligning to a few of the listed traits isn't evidence of being a fascist. Rather it's when you align with a large number of them (like say Trump).
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Trump is kind of diet-fascist, but not literally fascist. The big issue is degree.
"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
Oh, bother.
He's more of a wannabe-fascist. If the USA's institutions were as weak as the Weimar Republic's were...
Disgusted, but not surprised
And even in Weimar it took the establishment's cooperation to enable Hitler's rise to power. He didn't get elected; the "conservative" forces brought him in to prevent any chance of leftists gaining power.
edited 12th Dec '17 7:17:56 PM by DrunkenNordmann
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
There is any place where conservativism is not evil?
Dunno, I find it akward given that, dunno, I am probably pretty "conservative" in many things, I am quite leftist in most social issues but I still felt more like a person that keep traditions rather than a liberal social reformer.
edited 12th Dec '17 7:34:32 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
In one sense, "conservative" can be defined as changes slowly and cautiously and "liberal" can be defined as free. They don't have much to do with each other in that sense. Then they also tend to mean right and left wing respectively (in the USA. Liberal is more nuanced in Europa).
As for those: right is associated with respect for hierarchy note and maintenance of current power structures note . Left-wing is focused on leveling those power structures. It's the how (and to what extent) that gets problematic. note
And, interestingly enough, both right and leftists can make the argument that their positions are "defending what's fair."
edited 12th Dec '17 7:47:42 PM by CenturyEye
Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
Shin Megami Tensei IV
That's not interesting, no one will works in politics and said "I'm only here for the money!" or "My goal is being the New Stalin and instaure my own cult of personality".
I mean, I know the differences between Right and Left, I just ask for a situation where conservativism had been the overall "good guy".
edited 12th Dec '17 7:59:31 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
Being conservative (as in, preferring the status quo) is preferrable to being outright reactionary. The problem is that as time has gone on, what might have been "conservative" positions at one point are now just flat-out reactionary. It's just "conservatives" (in the US, especially) haven't stopped calling themselves that.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
The thing is, they seem pretty bad in the past too, when they are OK at best, you start doubting.
The Cold War is a good answer, as that was a time when there actually were Dirty Communists running around doing all manner of terrible things (it really was quite awful), and the #1 thing standing between them and world domination was American jingoism.
As a more broad answer, I'd say that it depends on how one defines "Conservatism". I define conservatism as "Pro-Cultural Moralism". Basically, Conservatism believes in protecting the culture from things it considers morally wrong, and that morality should be enforced to some extent via a hierarchy. What values it wants to impose depend on the specific type of conservatism.
"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
Uhm... define 'good guy' (generally, goodness is a moral value, and one that is not usually found in politics, apart from a few exceptional figures). Now, if you're talking skillful, competent, or virtuous (from the perspective of political action and communication) then you'll find answers in specific moments and characters,
Conservatism is a very diverse field of politicial opinions and positions and philosophies, ones with various differences, some more nunanced, some less so. It is more useful to, rather than pick up a 'good guy -ism', study each political and historical moment, character and/or idea within it particular historical and political context (while taking into account time, place, and cultural differences between past times and present times).
Oi, don't ignore the UK, France (especially during Charles de Gaulle's presidency, and particularly pre-1968), or the European Economic Community (nowadays European Union)
. Europeans played a very useful role (because some/most of us Europeans were living closer to the Soviet Union than the US was), by providing a better quality of life and economic conditions, as well as containing the terrorist groups of the 70's and 80's.
edited 12th Dec '17 8:37:23 PM by Quag15
Shin Megami Tensei IV
I'm asking for those
Watch me destroying my country
Oh, bother.
President Eisenhower was more or less okay.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
Well, the current "Leader of the Free World"TM, Chancellor Merkel (assuming that government holds) seems to fit the bill.
Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
What is your country, if I may ask? I think it's more useful to know about the conservative thinking and political figures within your country in the first place.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
That sounds interesting, here in Perú we barely care about Europe at all.
In other topic, I'm interested in how basically Hillary Clinton got such a bad reputation while she is actually quite decent. I mean, if you ask Internet about she, she's either Trump with a vagina, or a Evil Mastermind Lawful Evil Villain with Good Publicity. I overall, like Hillary, in fact, I'd actually called her Granny President in the election time.
The Hillary as the epítome of all that's bad with Politics meme is something that both Right wing AND Left wing voters tend to buy, just ask most Bernie (the Choosen one to destroy this crooked system) bros about she.
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I'd argue that anarchism and communism aren't quite optimistic ideologies. It's more accurate to say they're selectively jaded. An anarchist apparently believes that nobody can be trusted with state power, but that somehow the vast majority of people can be trusted to respect each other's rights even in the absence of authority.
"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"