How might "becoming an elf after you die" work?

Hi again everyone. I've got a question that needs a bit of context and is a little long.

As of right now I'm drafting a fantasy story based on two legends friends of mine told me about the character of Knecht Ruprecht, a variation of The Krampus. (German Catholic Tropers will know who I mean). As part of that and also because Norse mythology and Icelandic sagas/folklore/medieval history and folklore in general are two of my big interests, I've been doing some research on the Wild Hunt and the legends associated with it.

One of them (mentioned on the Wiki page for St. Lucy/Lucia's Day) is that a witch or troll-woman named Lussi would ride through the sky from 13 December through the end of Yule. She was accompanied by her followers, the "Lussiferda" and according to this book people wearing troll masks would travel from farm to farm in December in some parts of Norway, begging for food and drink. In some other traditions, the leader is Perchta or Berchta/Bertha, with a group of dead unbaptized children. Perchta is also syncretised with Lucia in some German traditions.

The idea I had was that the pre-Christian figures of Lussi and Perchta or Berchta and the Christian St. Lucia are the same. Basically, before her execution, Lucia hears this voice who tells her that her eyes will be restored when she "leaves the sight and world of men." She assumes this means going to heaven. That night she dies but the next day she finds herself in another dimension and she is now an elf (taken from a reference I read somewhere to a Norse king becoming an elf after he died. Unfortunately I can't remember the king's name offhand- EDIT: Seems it was Olaf, ancestor of Olaf the Holy). My idea about Alfheim is that if a person has been summoned there and/or lives there long enough, the rest of the world will eventually believe them to be dead. If the person keeps in regular contact with their relatives/people they know they will have to get reaccustomed to the outside world each time they visit.

She explains it all to St. Nicholas and Ruprecht after they faked Nicholas' death and fled Myra because a couple of trolls were after them and they wanted to continue helping people. So my question is: how might this becoming-an-elf-after-you-die thing actually work? Is Lucia likely to be dead, or more along the lines of undead? Is she reincarnated? I don't want anyone to write this for me or anything but I need help figuring out what effects a post-death as a human transformation into/resurrection as another race might have (beyond disorientation, possible spatial orientation) and comments on whether or not the vague idea that I have of her attitude to the whole thing is even plausible for a fourth-century Christian, or just any religious Christian, as I'm not Christian (she still occasionally finds it hard to believe that she's immortal and just got resurrected).

edited 21st Aug '14 6:24:08 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

I am a christian.

As with everything all depends on the execution.

Sorry to say this but usually christianity doesn't accept the idea of reincarnation at all (you might find a sect that does though as it is usually the case) . but christians would be more open to the idea of being reborn.

If your character is reborn as an elf rather than reincarnated it would be more pausible for her to accept and even embrace her new life.

Hope it helps.

edited 21st Aug '14 10:51:09 PM by fallenlegend

Ah OK. I knew all that but I was using the word "reincarnation" as shorthand for the idea that not only does a person's spirit continue to exist after their death, but also continues living in the same sort of way the dead person did when they were alive (ie. eating, drinking).

I do not know my Bible that well, but I think I remember something about the dead getting a new body in Heaven. Maybe St. Lucy and friends interperet becoming an Elf as what was meant with this?

Also, Elves (or at least some of them) were if I remember it right considered to be dead ancestors living together as they did when alive in a great hall/palace under the burial ground, essentially a much nicer version of Hel. (This seems to have been the world-view up untill Christian influences started to appear en masse during the Viking age.) Compare this with the ideas that sometimes shows up that Celtic Faeries and Scandinavian Trolls were souls of the dead. (Explains why they lives in burial mounds...)

You can let it be unclear if the Elven forms of Lucy and friends are their souls being corporeal in the form of Elves, or if it is their new Heavenly bodies. (At least one of them might believe the later?)

The idea that someone visits Alfheim and turns into an Elf over time is a good idea. (At least thats how I interperet what you wrote.) Sounds suitably otherwordly...

Also, the evil being leading Lussiferda is trough folk-etymology usually tought to be Lusse = Lillith if female (Lusse is also the inoficial name for St. Lucy here in Sweden). There exist an male leader of this Wild Hunt in Sweden as well. Lucifer himself, who is usually called Lusse Per thanks to folk-etymology, a name meaning Lusse Pete. And the part about the Luissiferda consistsing of unbabtised children fits with Lillith.

As the St. Lucy's Day's song here in Sweden says...

" ''Lusse lelle, Lusse lelle, elva nätter före Jul..."

" Little "Lusse", little "Lusse", eleven nights before Christmas..."

Where in Sweden do you live, if you don't mind me asking?

Re Lucifer as the male counterpart of Lusse and Lussi and the Lilith association: I think one of the versions of an "origin of elves" story (Eve has loads of children but some of them are dirty and so she hides them, God comes by, perceives this and makes them invisible to the other children = humans) has Lucy/Lucia in the starring role— conflated with Lilith. Thanks for quoting the song too, I never saw that one before.

Yes, if a person stays in Alfheim for years and gets more and more exposed to magic, they get more and more "elven".

I read somewhere that Lussinatt, the staying up all night to watch for Lusse, is an old pre-Christian celebration. Have you heard that before? Mind if I PM you about this?

edited 27th Aug '14 7:35:36 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

I live on the Western Coast a bit south of Gothenburg. And yes, you can PM me about this if you want.

I think I have read that "Origin of Elves" story version with Lusse / Lucy instead of Eve as the mother somewhere too, but it might have been me mixing up with stories about Lilith being the mother of Demons.

I also wanted to mention that the rest of the song makes it clear that it is without doubt Lusse = Saint Lucy and not Lusse = Lillith.

I know that both Lussinatt and Christmas, along with a few other days and nights in December / Early January were considered to be very magical. Have to read up on those days...

OK. I will. Mind if I PM you my email address too?

Re: Saint Lucia and Lussi

I've been reading Grimm's Teutonic Mythology recently and in the first volume he mentions that Lucy was often synthesised with Perchta in the figure of Frau Lutz or Lutzelfrau in Southern Germany and parts of Austria.

The Lutzelfrau was played as an old woman with ash on her face and wearing a kerchief who abducted naughty children and/or filled their stomachs with straw and pebbles (she also did this for women who still spun thread or people who didn't eat certain foods). She visited houses to check that they were spotless for the Christmas season and shook her skirts to send hidden presents to good kids.

edited 28th Aug '14 8:27:59 PM by MorwenEdhelwen

Some of those things that you mentioned, like the fact that spinning yarn (and anything else that goes round, like grinding flour) were prohibithed and that the house should be clean at certain days of the year is also an old Swedish tradition I have read about for holy days.

edited 30th Aug '14 2:53:28 AM by TheBorderPrince

It seems from what I have read that the Pagan Midwinter celebrations had a good female deity representing the returning light, Percha / Brecta / whatever the spelling. She is replaced in Christian times with a Christian saint named Lucy. (All names associated with light by the way.)

At Midwinter is all evil out with free reign since it is the darkest night of the year. Among them the Wild Hunt. As Christianity takes hold is the older religions portrayed negativily and their gods are portrayed as demons. This makes the Pagan godess the leader of the Wild Hunt at this day.

As an ironic twist is Saint Lucy as well given her own Wild Hunt on this day thanks to Folk Etymology, since her name sounds similar to Lucifer and Lilith and they even share nicknames in Sweden...

Perchta/Berchta is also associated with children. I found out from this article written by Lotte Motz that in areas of German-speaking Bohemia, Perchta *is* Saint Lucy and is called "Luzie". In the Tyrol region of Austria and Switzerland, she follows St. Nicholas and is basically Mrs. Claus.

edited 30th Aug '14 4:59:38 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

At least in Catholic tradition (I was raised Catholic so I my knowledge is largely limited to that viewpoint) the idea of you retaining a physical body after death is nonexistent, and there is no concept of reincarnation, or one of rebirth really.

The closest I can recall is the idea that the souls in purgatory will come to be rejudged at the end of days. However, there is no actual biblical source for that that I can recall. (Revelations is by our canon a social commentary of the times hidden in the form of a prediction. However, it is not an uncommon belief that there are true predictions held within it.)

Our contribution to the idea of Santa Clause is St. Nicholas who gave away his wealth to the poor, died and went to heaven. Everything else is taken from other sources, some of which you named.

However, one of the core beliefs is that saints do have an influence on earth from within heaven. If you want the character to keep more ideas from that culture and still have a physical form, my suggestion would be to not have her actually die but, whether by a well intentioned attempt to keep her alive or by a curse, be transformed while still alive in such a way as to make people assume she died. Then her actions as an elf could be interpreted by people as her performing "miracles" from heaven.

This also allows you to neither confirm nor deny whether the Christian beliefs are right or wrong in your story, which can turn away readers either way, but instead leave it open to interpretation.

Hi. Thanks for the answer. Lots of things I didn't consider in there

A few thoughts from me (based on what everyone has said so far, thanks so much everyone! ):

These legends are syncretism of Christian beliefs with pre-Christian ones. Somewhere I read that in the Tyrol, the figure of Berchta/Perchta (mentioned in the OP and by The Border Prince(thank you), used to be identified as "Claudia Procula," Pilate's wife, who was said to have been the first Gentile converted to Christianity after the crucifixion.

In some parts of southern Germany and Austria she was sometimes identified with the Virgin Mary or St. Lucy and often seen as leading the Wild Hunt with a group of dead unbaptised children trailing behind her. When she was syncretised with St. Lucy she was called the Lutzelfrau and abducted naughty children.

There was a similar Scandinavian character named Lusse/Lussi/Lussia, a troll-woman, elf or witch who was said to lead a Wild Hunt called the Lussiferda made up of elves, goblins and trolls and to fly over farmhouses on the eve of the winter solstice. She inspected the houses and disappeared through smokeholes and chimneys to abduct naughty children. When Scandinavians were slowly converted to Christianity, Lussi was replaced by St. Lucia. So really the question is "how to combine syncretisation with "official" Christianity."

edited 25th Sep '14 6:07:29 PM by MorwenEdhelwen