Understanding my characters

Bumping again to say that I don't really seem to understand how existing characters work either. I watch a movie, and no matter how much I like it, I'm not inclined to go "okay, why did they do that?" or "what would happen if instead of [plot point from movie], what if [different plot point] happened instead?" You'd think watching more movies would help me with this, but so far all it's doing is confusing me more.

Have you tried reading through some of the character development threads and seeing how different characters from different universes interact with each other in whichever setting the CDT is?

The characters are visiting the setting from whichever universes they are from and may be bringing their own goals from their setting (e.g. looking for missing friends) or may just invent a setting-related goal on the spot (somewhere around here, there's got to be a place that sells decent pizza) but then they meet up with, and get caught up in the stories/goals of, other characters from different universes.

The dynamics are fascinating and you get to see inside the heads of the characters and how they perceive the totally alien (magic users or demons vs high-tech SF humans and aliens) characters they encounter.

To borrow from one of the current threads, the characters may decide that all they want to do is have something to eat - a simple goal - they find a likely place and order this alien dish called Piz-zah and try to enjoy it but someone else accidentally drops a fireball into the middle of their meal.

The ensuing events are seen from the point of view of, among others, a lycanthrope ex-soldier, a street-smart cyborg, a multidimensional hero and his companions, a budding superhero, four magic/energy users of various types, a lust demon, a murderous woman...

And their thoughts, motivations, prejudices and how it impacts upon their own goals (at that stage, chiefly "having a quiet meal" and "getting to know the others they've met") are all clearly laid out in the posts.

That should give you plenty of ideas on how other writers handle "what if" scenarios and completely "left field" events and how those things affect their characters' own goals.

I don't know if my brain just went out to lunch again but I'm not really understanding your last post.

I was suggesting that reading some of the Character Development Thread shared stories might help you understand how various characters work and see how random different plot points might affect their goals - even simple goals (given you've previously stated that your own characters only seem to have simple goals such as wanting a pizza or wanting to get laid.)

Everyone has their motivations and goals, which stem from their backstories (childhood, experiences before the story begins), wants, prejudices, beliefs, moral code, and fears.

I think fears are what drives humans the most. Fears like : "I don't want to be forgotten" can drive a character to become famous so they can deal with the fear. They also might be extroverted and try to leave an impact on people they meet. They can be friendly and an all-around people person.

However, their flaws will only keep them away from their goals. Flaws I think can also stem from fears. From the example, the person might be clingy. There could be unrelated flaws too, like the person is rather untrustworthy because they're bad at keeping secrets. These things will draw people away from them, or further away from reaching their goals.

My detective character, Kevin, has a fear that justice won't be served. So he's a very determined person, and has an unquenchable desire to finish cases. It's why in his world, he's well-known for solving a lot of cases in short time. But he's careless because he won't stop, which sometimes gets him to not eat or sleep, or get himself shot by an enemy.

Simple goals like "I'm hungry" are just stemmed from the human body needing nourishment, which we all face. But stories can be made interesting out of motivations like that.

I don't know where I was going with this, but here it is regardless.

Those threads are waaaaaaaaay too tl;dr.

Look, we've given you a lot of options, you've said they're too hard.

Do you actually want to do this? Because it's not coming across that way.

I want to, but I'm just not understanding what's going on in that capital thread. I read about two pages and couldn't figure anything out.

Edit: ninja'd by the Night ninja.

Sadly, part and parcel of being a writer (even for screen or comic books) is reading - voraciously, copiously and widely. As are feeling inclined to understand why people do things, wondering "what if" and exploring the possibilities of what would happen if Plot B had happened instead of Plot A.

Reading is not merely the best way to learn the craft, it is the only way - it gives insights that you don't get in visual media.

If you cannot discipline yourself to read and see how others write, if you have no motivation or inclination to understand other people or other people's characters, then you cannot become a writer.

It's work - and it's hard work - and it's not over because then there comes the writing, which is also hard work. But it need not be unpleasant as there is a joy to be found in reading and in writing.

If you dismiss things as "tl;dr" or have no inclination to explore and understand something as pivotal as character motivation, then you're probably not as obsessed with writing as you think.

You may be obsessed with the idea of being a writer, but that's not the same thing.

As you've been told numerous times on these threads, you've got to apply yourself to it and study - and that's not going to change, ever.

I'm obsessed with writing - not so much obsessed with finishing, to my cost (I freely admit) - and I write and I read and I analyse (and I change stories and write those instead of finishing the ones I was working on - I'm not claiming I'm perfect or faultless - but I'm still writing.)

A new CDT thread will open soon. My suggestion, if you're serious about seeing character motivation and on-the-fly seat-of-the-pants reactions of those characters to others: start reading it from the first page, before it gets too big, so that you're only having to read little bits rather than 30+ pages from the outset. Get up to speed while it's only a couple of pages long and read it every day to keep abreast of it.

You'll see motivations galore.

Unfortunately, I have no suggestions for solving "not having the inclination".

edited 20th Mar '15 10:24:19 PM by Wolf1066

Apologies for the cardinal sin of double-posting, but I've already edited the previous post enough.

You may want to be a writer, but there's more to it than just "wanting". I might "want" to be a famous musician, but if I'm not prepared to learn enough about music and my chosen instrument, I'm not going to get anywhere. I can't just bash on the strings or blow frantically into the end and expect to get an acceptable result.

You keep asking the same questions and getting the same answer: it involves work; there are no shortcuts, no ways of avoiding it, no advice that anyone can or will ever give you that will alter that fact.

You missed the boat for just saying/doing any old thing by about 100 thousand years. Ever since then, it's all been built on a long narrative tradition that dates back to skilled raconteurs sitting around the campfire while mammoth steaks sizzle, so now you've gotta do your homework first.

What is it you can't understand about what's happening in Capital? It's clearly enough written by some bloody talented writers. In the opening couple of pages you've got people arriving at or near the Terminal and encountering each other, interacting, observing things about each other from their own viewpoints.

Lots of things. They're all concepts I'm totally unfamiliar with. I have no concept of how I would react to any given thing, much less how someone would. And reading a couple pages in has not elucidated anything.

And nothing ever seems to rub off on me for inspiration. I've been watching more movies than ever at my friend's insistence, but nothing at all, no matter how much I like the movie, has made me go "oh, that's why Character X reacted this way to Situation X, but Character Y did this instead" or "That is such a cool idea that I wanna use".

For instance, I didn't get Pitch Black at all because Riddick's characterization made zero sense to me. His character had a lot of elements that seemed contradictory to me, and still didn't make sense when explained.

Or to take a film I did like, Big Hero 6 was enjoyable as hell to me, but I seemed to gain nothing out of rewatching it other than general enjoyment. No deeper understanding of any character, human or big cuddly robot. No "What would X do if Y happened instead?" thoughts or "Hmm, [character I'm trying to make] shares [trait] with [character in movie], let's build off that".

Just more random thoughts.

Sadly, it's something you have to be able to do and do for yourself. No one can understand character motivations for you and you can't avoid it - because the whole set up of a scene is predicated on the character's goal(s) (determined by whatever motivates the character), what setbacks and obstacles hinder the goal(s) and what decisions the character makes to get around the setbacks in the pursuit of the goal(s) (including possibly formulating a new goal to deal with the immediate setback in order to dispose of it so they can resume their quest for the original goal).

And sadly, no one's going to say, "it's all right, Twentington, there's no need for all that silly character motivation and conflict shit." No one honest, anyway. It's always going to be, "you have to learn how to do this."

If consuming media isn't working, narrative writing might not be for you.

I can't believe nobody mentioned this yet, but how about joining a forum RPG? There is a section for that on these forums, but a lot of other fanbase or writing forums have one too. The format is similar to that of the Character Development thread - you are given a scenario (which often reads like a short story) and fill out a simple form for your character (describing things like how they look and act and their background), and then collaborate with others to write a story. But there, you start the story from the very beginning, so you don't have to do a whole lot of reading beforehand.

I'm suggesting this because it has helped me a lot with my own writing ages ago. Over the years of R Ping, I have been able to add more depth to my characters, and improve my descriptions and relations to other characters. Of course, it took me over five years to see any significant improvement, but it did happen, and all it took was practice (and believe me, I was not a very good writer when I started).

R Ping does wonders for character development. With it, you can not only practice your own writing, but also observe how other people are writing in the same situation. And there are (usually) ample opportunities for character interaction - in this case, with other writers. And it also creates a sense of community where you can ask others for help (like if you're confused about the world the RPG takes place in). It can be a great opportunity to explore more options and even stories/franchises/worlds you are currently unfamiliar with.

Another thing I will say is that imagination is key. While doing your research and having experiences does pay off, sometimes you can get away with making fairly educated guesses. For example, one topic I really like to write about is thievery (and to some extent, crime in general). And yet, I haven't stolen many things or dealt with a lot of crime, and I was never involved in any gangs. I got my inspiration mainly from movies and TV shows and the occasional book, and threw in a lot of my own speculation and logical thinking to come up with a sort of Scoundrel Code for the group of gentleman thieves I'm writing about. I will admit, I'm not at all into research and tend to rely more on imagination and occasionally other works or my own experiences, but whatever works.

And finally, try inserting an aspect of yourself into your characters. Even if it is a very small aspect (like the character shares your academic interests), it can really help you relate to the character and get inside their head. Of course, don't go overboard and make the character into a perfectly flawless Mary Sue because of it.

What'd be a good RPG to start with that's easily accessible? I tried looking at a few and they all just disintegrated into gibberish for me.

The only other RP's I've ever done before have been sexual, so characterization and plot didn't matter too much.

I've tried using Artistic License, only to be told every time that what I'm doing isn't remotely logical even in-universe. Happened just a few days ago with a sexual thing I was trying to write. I had a suggested setup (which I don't think I can explain without Squick) only to be told that it would be a total Idiot Plot.

There isn't much to me to insert either. I can play mandolin, so character X plays mandolin. Okay, now what? I think walking two feet to the trash can to throw my trash away is too much effort — but I don't wanna write that, because I hate being reminded of flaws that glaring, and who would want to read about a character like that anyway?

I hate to ask, but have you considered the possibility that you don't have what it takes to formulate a story? Not everything can be done by everyone, especially not creative things, and you may just lack the capacity to do it - like I lack the capacity to sculpt and have extreme difficulty with maths.

If you're constantly having problems understanding and motivating your characters, finding things to challenge them and knowing how they'd respond to those things anyway, if people are telling you that it's not logical or internally consistent or an Idiot Plot, perhaps you haven't got strengths in the areas needed for writing a story.

That's not to say you're useless, just that you lack a particular skillset and your strengths lie elsewhere. Maybe you can do maths or sculpt, perhaps you're way better with the mandolin than I am (I can get a tune out of one, but a musician I'm not).

What do you want? As in, what do you like and what do you hate? That's self-characterization.

For instance, you don't like Good versus Evil plots. Why? They're predictable and boring. There, you have a character trait: Gets irritatedly bored. Projects a loathing for simplicity, but has difficulty with complexity or ambiguity.

Put that into action. Another character comes in and says, "Hey, watch the new Conan the Barbarian movie with me!"

Hypothetical-You reaction? Aversion. Motive to do something, that is, reject the invitation, because this character Does Not Want to waste their time with this. This character knows that they feel bad to have been an audience to such formulaic drivel.

Or you say you can play the mandolin. How did that happen? Do you like playing the mandolin enough to practice it? Then that's a character trait: Likes music.

Give that trait to a character. They're walking along somewhere. They hear music. They like music. Because they like music, they decide to walk in directions where this music gets louder.

If this character took the same attitude towards music as the previous character did towards Good versus Evil plots, then the choice they make would be very different.

Where does sexuality come from? Why engage in that? That is not a rhetorical question. Is the attraction to sexual situations that it's an opportunity to relieve oneself of frustration? Is it a distraction from humdrum, less vivid, not at all intense, ordinary and mundane life?

I took lessons because I wanted to take lessons. I was taking guitar and the teacher suggested I try mandolin too. I took guitar lessons because I'd taken piano since forever and wanted something new.

The sex stuff? Wish fulfillment I think?

There we go. Character trait. Motivator: Wants Something New.

And, where does that wish come from? What is so lacking in life that this wish must be fulfilled? Is it to trust without betrayal, or is it to be trusted (and therefore valued) enough to engage in such an intimate act? Or is it more physically rooted in the experience?

All of those are motivators, and motive makes a character.

edited 11th Apr '15 12:05:32 AM by Faemonic

I was feeling kinda down when I was posting last night. I think I have some idea on some of the leads' wants, most of which are NSFW. Expect me to tiptoe a lot of NSFW when trying to describe this.

Sorry for the double post, but one recurring theme I'm noticing comes up is the use of resources and skills to benefit others. So I think that's the angle I'll go for.

I know it'll sound mean/off-topic, but I think it's the reason why offering writing advice has had/will keep having no effect...

Have you thought about seeing a therapist? I ask because much of this - you not recognizing your achievements, you assuming failure before trying, you taking each failure really hard, you never feeling passionate or motivated about anything, you not standing up for yourself, you not getting out much, you letting your frustration turn into an overflow of anger, etc. - are manifestations of depression. Also, if you do see a therapist, tell him/her about how difficult it is for you to understand other people's motives for their actions. Also, those things you hate about yourself like laziness are things you can change about yourself, so change them.

Depression is a good culprit, but since I started this thread, I've gotten a job and I've already noticed in just under two months how much better my mental and physical health has gotten. I feel a lot more confident and focused in a ton of things.

Just recently, I was literally able to visualize characters from my webcomic world, and see and hear them as if they were in front of me. Part of what helped is that one of my managers is uncannily like one of the characters I'm trying to write.

I also randomly decided on my two worlds being part of the same 'verse, separated by several hundred years: webcomic is 20 Minutes into the Future, writings are just plain future. This allows me to have a clearer focus on continuity, and a friend has even offered suggestions on Call Forwards in the webcomic-verse to hint at a major plot point that greatly affects events in the future-verse.

Right now, a lot of stuff is still in my head, but I feel that I have a much greater focus on where everything is going, and who's going there with me.

Congratulations on the job! And good to hear it's having a positive effect. Is it one in which you have workmates in close proximity? Brings you in contact with the public?

All the best with it.

Yeah, that's what helps, is that I'm around more people a lot, getting to know what they're like, and realizing that one of my shift managers is insanely hot by merit of her personality alone so much like one of my characters.