While I'm not the one being asked, my opinion is that while Orbán and co. indeed need a solid thwack to the nails to get them back in line, outright chucking Hungary out of the EU would be majorly counterproductive.
I mean, Jobbik has been arguing since their very foundation that Hungary should quit the EU. Considering how... cranky Hungarians can be if they feel they're being oppressed by a foreign power, kicking the country out of the EU would rally everyone behind Jobbik in resentment and basically repeat history. After the double-crap of the migrant crisis and Ukraine, a third crisis in Hungary is something Europe really doesn't need right now.
Regarding the referendum itself, I state with no reluctance or secrecy that my vote to the question whether Brussels should have the authority to settle immigrants into Hungary is a most definite YES. We're a part of Europe, goddamnit; we need to do our part as such, or nobody's ever going to treat us as anything other than a Cloudcuckoolander.
Oh, and Fidesz' latest anti-left rhetoric is accusing the Democratic Coalition's anti-referendum campaign to be funded from Brussels. DK is denying and saying that part of it is party funds, part of it is EP honorarium.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
At the very least their funding and voting privileges should be cut (though I doubt that could ever happen). Which would almost certainly drive Hungary towards an EU withdrawal/the far-right (though Orban doesn't sound that different from those Jobbik nuts at this point), but if the other option is letting illiberal democracies rise in Europe...
A bomb exploded last night in downtown Budapest, two policemen severely injured. At least two eyewitnesses reported signs implying a nailbomb and cameras caught a guy dropping off a bag at the detonation site beforehand.
What makes this on-topic is that it happened exactly one week before the referendum Orbán is trying to use as an excuse to refuse the 1200-something refugees Brussels is trying to drop off in Hungary. Already there are talks of foul play and the Democratic Coalition is demanding evidence to the contrary, due how suspiciously little actual damage was caused.
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
So this happened in Poland: Polish MPs have rejected calls to throw out an anti-abortion law that restricts it to "only if the pregnancy threatens the mother’s life"
If Wojtek Pod is here, I could use some local background (how do you summon a troper?)...
I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Weird, news over here said that the anti-abortion bill in Poland would not allow any kind of abortion, even if the mother would die from the pregnancy.
So abortion clincis near the German-Polish border are going to be even more frequented. They are already highly sought after by Polish women.
edited 30th Sep '16 1:45:28 AM by Zarastro
Stop Killing My Titles
I can also help. '3'
Basically, in what is the worst example of PIS being PIS, they have earlier said that they will try their best to regard all citizens-made projects positively. Anti-abortion law is such a "citizens-made" project - made by pro-lifers' organizations (so you can judge how much is it made by common people).
Any and all abortions would be banned. Miscarriages would be considered criminal offenses and may get a woman in up to 5 years in jail. All the defective children that will die the moment they are given birth to will have to come into this world under the pain of law, same with children conceived with rape and children who may endanger mother's life/health.
Mind you, regarding the whole rape thing, government representatives were rather disdainful - to put it mildly - of the women who do not want to give birth to a child-by-rape, things like "oh, go ahead and give birth to it, I can happily adopt it if you don't want it" or "she acted like a real woman and we should be proud of her" (context: a 12-year-old giving birth to a child-by-rape; allegedly reported to be unaware of what exactly is happening there).
There's a bunch of protests prepared, but with PIS having the majority, nothing short of physical assault on Sejm can probably phase 'em. >.>
Supposedly EU is paying attention to this farce to a point where the whole thing is to be discussed, much to a disapproval of our Prime Puppet Minister.
And, because this one is really fucking rustling my jimmies, she referred to herself and The Minister of Finances "the anointed of Jarosław Kaczyński" (the man running PIS and this whole country from behind the lines).
The anointed. Please let that sink in for a moment.
grah
Did Pi S not claim during the election campaign that the President and PM would be their own people and not be dependent on Jarosław Kaczyńsk?
Stop Killing My Titles
They have also claimed that Antoni Macierewicz (Army, Smoleńsk conspiracy nut) and Zbigniew Ziobro (Justice) won't be a part of the gabinet.
Lo and behold where that went.
grah
So... referendum today.
As of 1 PM, turnout is 23.56℅. Naturally, the govt is going to communicate the majority of nays as a victory, but they likely have to think twice whether to continue with the migrant propaganda because it's clear that despite the billions poured into the hatemongering campaign, the populace just doesn't care.
Update: as of 3 PM, turnout is 30.66℅.
edited 2nd Oct '16 7:28:16 AM by amitakartok
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
Are there any turnout requirements that must be met for it to be binding?
I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Hungary and Poland's games are a sign that Europe desperately needs a proper federal government, with law enforcement powers over federal competencies.
Agreed.
50℅ turnout is the minimum for it to be considered valid. But considering that the question is literally "Do you agree that Brussels should have the right to nonconsensually settle foreign nationals in Hungary?" and EU law gives no member govt the right to set EU-wide policies via national referendum, I don't think it has any binding power either way. This is purely for chest-pounding.
edited 2nd Oct '16 10:34:39 AM by amitakartok
V
That's not going to happen. Quite frankly, that could end the EU in the current political climate.
edited 2nd Oct '16 8:48:35 AM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On
An hour and a half before the urns were closed, turnout was 39.88%. While the counting is still going on, it is 99% certain now that the referendum is a bust.
Party reactions:
- Fidesz: turnout is irrelevant, the majority of votes are still nays. While it's not politically binding, they still "feel obligated" to legislate in this regard anyway.
- Jobbik: Orbán must resign because Brussels can now use the insufficient turnout to ignore the nays and settle migrants here anyway.
- Left: the turnout indicates over half of the country is with them.
During the referendum, Fidesz continually tried to sway people via texting and robocalling urging them to vote nay. The national TV station even threw in a live news report that a large number of migrants are camped out at Belgrade with intentions to make their way north to the border as soon as the referendum results are in.
edited 2nd Oct '16 10:47:15 AM by amitakartok
Is campaigning on Voting Day illegal in Hungary? I mean, Orban and his crew act like the law doesn't apply anyway.
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Of course they act like that. They were the ones who came up with the "50%+1 to be valid" rule for referendums, the same rule they're now calling irrelevant.
Current statistics:
- 94.8% of votes processed
- 42.27% turnout
- 92.32% nay
- 1.46% yay
- 6.22% invalid
There were many protests on the streets against the new anti-abortion legislation yesterday. They were in many cities and were quite numerous (in some of the towns they were more numerous than KOD manifestations had been so far).
As for the the proposed law itself, it's bad. It's badly written, and I'd argue it's against the Constitution as well. But since it's about Abortion, and it's one of the topics that is not really welcome here (and for a good reason), I'll just leave the link to this... piece of legislation (link in Polish):
http://www.sejm.gov.pl/Sejm8.nsf/druk.xsp?nr=784
PS. If anybody wants (and moderation agrees to), I'll translate some parts to show you what it actually changes (and to prevent others saying you were deceived by leftists). But it's mostly what Fergard Stratoavis said.
edited 4th Oct '16 10:41:12 AM by WojtekPod
Sure, go ahead![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
. I'm curious to know what it says.
Show an affirming flame
Stop Killing My Titles
Seeing this document for the first time, that's some fucking audacity to quote Constitutional Tribunal they have personally dismantled as "justification" (uzasadnienie).
Anyway, Black Protest got international coverage; with words of support coming from places all over the world. Supposedly even BBC/CNN (I forget which >.> ) took notice. Also, The Church Gang organized their own "White Protest" where they've gathered people in defense of "unborn life".
What is the word of the government? Well, our Foreigns Affairs minister referred to the whole thing as "playing around" and that "to bother with such trivial matters, one has to have no worries".
It seems he went too far as the official PIS statement says it's his "private opinion" and they hold no such agreement.
I think you could probably run it through Google Translate for most of the text.
edited 4th Oct '16 2:32:56 PM by FergardStratoavis
grah
Content warning: abortion
I'll try to translate it point by point. My translations might be not very precise as I am not a professional interpreter. Please note that I had to change Polish characters so they're not making the quotes very hard to read (there seems to be a coding problem for them).
The law changes 7th January 1993 Family Planning, Protection of Human Fetus and Conditions of Allowing Abortion Act and 6th June 1997 Penal Code Act.
a. ust. 1 pkt 1 otrzymuje brzmienie: "1) opieke medyczna nad kobieta w ciazy oraz dzieckiem poczetym";
b. ust. 2a otrzymuje brzmienie: "2a. Organy administracji rzadowej oraz samorzadu terytorialnego, w zakresie swoich kompetencji okreslonych w przepisach szczegolnych, są zobowiazane zapewnic pomoc materiaIna i opieke dla rodzin wychowujacych dzieci dotkniete ciezkim uposledzeniem albo choroba zagrazajaca ich zyciu, jak rowniez matkom oraz ich dzieciom, gdy zachodzi uzasadnione podejrzenie, ze do poczecia doszlo w wyniku czynu zabronionego.";
a. paragraph. 1 point 1 is replaced by the following: "1) the medical care of pregnant women and the conceived child";
b. paragraph. 2a is replaced by the following: "2a. The state administration bodies and local self-government, within their competence specified in special regulations, are obliged to provide material assistance and care for families with children affected by severe disability or disease threatening their lives, as well as the mothers and their children, where there is reasonable suspicion that the conception occurred as a result of a criminal act. "
7) uchyla sie art. 4b;
8) uchyla sie art. 4c;
7) article 4b shall be repealed;
8) article 4c shall be repealed;
And here we come to the first main part of this legislature:
a) article 4a allows abortion is a couple of specific cases
b) article 4b says that allowed abortion is funded entirely by public health insurance
c) article 4c protects the patients by the secrecy and gives compensation if the secrecy is broken.
As the post is already big and it's just the first half (the second half is about Penal code), I'll end it here and post the second half in the next post.
edited 4th Oct '16 2:52:03 PM by WojtekPod
Continued from above:
"p. 24. Dzieckiem poczetym jest czlowiek w prenatalnym okresie rozwoju, od chwili polaczenia sie zenskiej i meskiej komorki rozrodczej.";
"p. 24. Conceived child is a human being in the prenatal period of development, from the time of joining of the female and the male reproductive cells."
"Art. 152.
p. 1. Kto powoduje smierc dziecka poczetego, podlega karze pozbawienia wolnosci od 3 miesiecy do lat 5.
p. 2. Jezeli sprawca czynu okreslonego w p. 1 dziala nieumyslnie, podlega karze pozbawienia wolnosci do lat 3.
p. 3. Odpowiada w granicach zagrozenia przewidzianego za sprawstwo czynu okreslonego w p. 1 takze ten, kto udziela pomocy w jego popełnieniu lub do jego popelnienia naklania
p. 4. Nie popelnia przestepstwa okreslonego w p. 1 i p. 2, lekarz, jezeli smierc dziecka poczetego jest nastepstwem dzialan leczniczych, koniecznych dla uchylenia bezposredniego niebezpieczenstwa dla życia matki dziecka poczetego.
p. 5. Jezeli sprawca czynu okreslonego w p. 1 jest matka dziecka poczetego, sad moze zastosowac wobec niej nadzwyczajne zlagodzenie kary, a nawet odstapic od jej wymierzenia.
p. 6. Nie podlega karze matka dziecka poczetego, ktora dopuszcza sie czynu okreslonego w p. 2. ";
"Art. 152.
p. 1. Whoever causes the death of the unborn child shall be punished by imprisonment from 3 months to 5 years.
p. 2. If the perpetrator of the act specified in p. 1 acts unintentionally, they are subject to the penalty of imprisonment up to 3 years.
p. 3. The responsible in the limits of endangerment provided for the perpetration of the act specified in p. 1 are also the ones who assist in its commission or inducing to commiting it.
p. 4. Doctors do not commit any offense referred to in p. 1 and p. 2 if the death of the unborn child is a consequence of curative actions, necessary to avert direct danger to the life of the mother conceived child.
p. 5. If the perpetrator of the act specified in p. 1 is the mother of the fetus, the court may apply to the extraordinary mitigation of punishment, or even waive its imposition.
p. 6. Mother of the fetus, who commits the act specified in p. 2, is not to be punished."
"Art. 153. Kto stosujac przemoc wobec matki dziecka poczetego powoduje smierc dziecka poczetego lub przemoca, grozba bezprawna albo podstępem doprowadza matke dziecka poczetego do pozbawienia zycia tego dziecka, podlega karze pozbawienia wolnosci od roku do lat 10.".
"Art. 153. Whoever uses violence against the mother and the unborn child causes the death of a child conceived or violence, unlawful threat or deceit mother of the fetus to the deprivation of life of the child shall be punished by imprisonment from one year to 10 years."
"Art. 154. p. 1. Jezeli nastepstwem czynu, o ktorym mowa w art. 152 p. 1, jest smierc matki dziecka poczetego, sprawca podlega karze pozbawienia wolnosci od roku do lat 10.
p. 2. Jezeli nastepstwem czynu okreslonego w art. 153 jest smierc matki dziecka poczetego, sprawca podlega karze pozbawienia wolnosci od lat 2 do 12.";
"Art. 154. p. 1. If the consequence of the act referred to in Art. 152 p. 1 is the death of the mother of the conceived child, the perpetrator shall be punished by imprisonment from one year to 10 years.
p. 2. If the consquence of the act specified in Article 153 is the death of the mother of the conceived child, the perpetrator shall be punished by imprisonment from 2 to 12. ';
"Art. 157a.
p. 1. Kto powoduje uszkodzenie ciala dziecka poczetego lub rozstroj zdrowia zagrazający jego zyciu, podlega karze pozbawienia wolnosci do lat 3.
p. 2. Jezeli sprawca czynu okreslonego w p. 1 dziala nieumyslnie, podlega grzywnie, karze ograniczenia wolnosci albo pozbawienia wolnosci do roku.
p. 3. Nie popelnia przestępstwa okreslonego w p. 1 i p. 2 lekarz, jezeli uszkodzenie ciala lub rozstroj zdrowia dziecka poczetego sa nastepstwem działan leczniczych, koniecznych dla uchylenia niebezpieczenstwa grozacego zdrowiu lub zyciu matki dziecka poczetego albo dziecka poczetego.
p. 4. Jezeli sprawca czynu okreslonego w p. 1 jest matka dziecka poczetego, sad moze zastosowac wobec niej nadzwyczajne zlagodzenie kary, a nawet odstapic od jej wymierzenia.
p. 5. Nie podlega karze matka dziecka poczetego, ktora dopuszcza sie czynu okreslonego w p. 2.".
"Art. 157a.
p. 1. Whoever causes bodily harm the conceived child or causes health disorder threatening his life, is punishable by imprisonment up to 3 years.
p. 2. If the perpetrator of the act specified in p. 1 acts unintentionally, they are to be subject to a fine, restriction of liberty or imprisonment up to a year.
p. 3. The doctor does not commit a crime in a particular p. 1 and p. 2 if bodily injury or health disorder of the conceived child is a consequence of curative actions, necessary to avert the danger threatening the health or life of the mother or of the conceived child.
p. 4. If the perpetrator of the act specified in p. 1 is the mother of the conceived child, the court may apply to the extraordinary mitigation of punishment, or even waive its imposition.
p. 5. Not punishable mother of the conceived child, which commits the act specified in p. 2 ".
The rest of the text is over 30 pages of justification. I think I will leave it with my remark that I remain unconvinced.
edited 4th Oct '16 4:11:12 PM by WojtekPod
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
Looks like the total abortion ban is not happening... for now.
I'll believe that when I see it.
I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
@ Rationalinsanity: If it was possible, would you expel the likes of Hungary and Poland from the EU?
edited 23rd Sep '16 11:24:30 PM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On