What and how can the anime industry in Japan get out of the moe gutter

I think that the Japanese anime companies (in large) should again realize the value of international audiences in anime and use it to their advantage by making a variety of anime, including original action cartons that are not based on manga, comedy shows, and other genres, since animation in general can cover many genres (but is not a genre itself; it's a medium). Then,they should start to deversify their money making sectors, so that toy sales and DVD/Blu-ray sales would not be the only things that anime should earn their money. What do you think about this topic? How can the Japanese anime industry get out of its current moe gutters?

"You can run, but you can't hide from the Buzzinator!"

If the past few years have shown anything, it is already beginning to.

Kill la Kill

I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial

I think the rise in Simulcasting and such would make International Audiences more important to them. Course, I dunno how much the production companies actually make off of Simulcasting agreements.

These are the words that shall come from my mouth. I shall be known for speaking them.

Kill La Kill is barely profitable, let alone something that will change anything. Not that it necessarily should, from what I've seen of it.

Hmm... nope, can't think of a simple solution to a global industry's problems off the top of my head. Also, I'm distracted by the grammar of the title.

I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial

What's wrong with Moe?

I'd say selling 8,000 copies for a series with as low a budget as Kill La Kill, and being a first TV work for a new studio (made of veterans, but still) and being the third highest selling first volume on blu ray in all of the fall season is far from being "barely profitable".

Watch Symphogear

I sure some marketing genius in Japan is thinking "The solution is to market moe to everyone".

So go the My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic route, then.

Watch Symphogear

The line for a "success" in generally drawn at 10k.

If it were an average budget series, maybe, but the series is actually much more strained on it's budget then other series from the same season, which is why it's so noticeable.

Watch Symphogear

The title is supposed to be read as "What can the Japanese anime industry do to get itself out of the moe gutter? How can it do these actions?" But apparently, TV Tropes forum titles can only be so long, which explains why the title is a little tough to read and dicipher.

There is quite a bit that alienates people from moe. First of all, most anime series nowadays (other than those made for kids) are made with the otaku audience in mind, which is obsessed with this type of anime for some reason; this audience is actually the one that buys the merchandise and the DV Ds of anime series. Also, this audience is only a tiny fraction of Japanese citizens. Most Japanese citizens, in sharp comparison, can't really go around and collect merchandise because space to live in in Japan is small and very expensive, considering that most of the island nation is mountaneous. Thus, I believe the only way for this industry to cause a second golden age to occur (or at least do moderately better) is to look to international audiences and make a variety of anime to make (including original action cartoons, comedies, sci-fi animation and other genres).

Secondly, moe anime is about character archetypes and mainly about cute girls being cute, among other stuff. It also allows writers to be lazy sometimes.

I cannot think of any more reasons why some people are not into moe, but I'm pretty sure there are some more. Go ahead, like your moe, but Japanese animation is more than just some silly moe chiched stuff; it can be used to tell stories that a wide variety of people can relate to, and it's an art form and a medium.

edited 14th Feb '14 4:34:55 PM by Buzzinator

"You can run, but you can't hide from the Buzzinator!"

...huh?

I'm not seeing why this is included. (I mean, what's so important about the difference between an anime original action show, and an anime of a manga original action book?)

Unless "carton" is there on purpose, an action carton would certainly be new

>implying there's a lack of these

I guess there's not that much I can recall without giant robots though

but seriously, I do not think the problem is "EVERYTHING IS A MOE SOL THESE DAYS" we have tons of other stuff all the time

said other stuff may not be high quality or uncliched itself but it's not the same cliche as the above (and it may include moe elements or something but even then, it still is designed to have a different appeal, in the form of giant robots or superpowers or whatever.)

but this is coming from the guy that watches anime about card games for kids so my credibility might be low d:

edited 14th Feb '14 4:36:55 PM by KirigayaKazuto

MMORPGs are serious business.

A) Screw you, I like moe

B) There's really not all that many shows that are focused on moe in the first place

C) Getting an international audience is almost completely unrelated

Bakemonogatari also had a small budget and even "ran out of ink" halfway through episode 10, and got 80k in initial sales. Unfortunately, the anime industry apparently failed to learn that smart writing sells discs.

edited 14th Feb '14 4:34:43 PM by Clarste

OK, I like anime based in manga; I especially like Dragon Ball and Fullmetal Alchemist. Don't get me wrong. They (or most of them, seeing there are some stinkers) are great TV shows. I am just saying that since moe and kids' anime are dominating the Japanese anime industry right now, and though it seems that the anime industry is in a relative dark age right now (even though it's been worse), there should be more variety of anime in order for the anime industry to overcome its current problems and begin a new golden age.

edited 14th Feb '14 4:44:09 PM by Buzzinator

"You can run, but you can't hide from the Buzzinator!"

IDK, are there really a lot of cutesy shows in Japan? (might be misunderstanding what moe is) I'm not aware of that many.

Anime is NOT about having good plot or writing. It CAN be, but that is NOT the standard for anime. Anime is simply anime, and if the current trend is moe, then that's that. If you don't like the moe, then simply don't watch it, but don't try to force anime into what it is not. Having an international audience means jack shit if we don't buy the blurays, which I sure as hell won't if they start pandering internationally and stop their moe. There's absolutely nothing wrong with moe, and there's a shit ton of shows that aren't moe just this season alone, and if you look back the previous seasons as well, there really isn't as much as you probably thought.

As for Kill la Kill, one show by a well-known studio isn't going to change or save anything.

"And you must be Jonathan Joestar!" - Sue

Then what is it about, if I may ask?

Doctor Who — Long Way Around: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13536044/1/Doctor-Who-Long-Way-Around

You underestimate Kill la Kill's ability to SAVE ANIME

I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial

Getting an international audience is only meaningful if said audience is willing to pay significant money for the anime they like (either that, or reach eight digit levels worth of subscribers/ad watchers). Moreover, historically the most popular shows internationally tend to be high profile shounen adapations (Naruto, Fullmetal Alchemist, Death Note, Attack on Titan, etc.) which are already wildly popular in Japan anyhow; "adapt all the most popular shounen mangas" is something that the anime industry is quite willing to do without reinforcement from the rest of the world.

Most anime have been aimed at either kids/families or otaku since an otaku market started to develop; prior to that it was pretty much all aimed at kids/families. The rest consist largely of arthouse films made with a (small) finite budget and aimed at its own specific niche. There's nothing anyone in the industry can do to make a significant customer base develop out of nothing, so the only rational thing to do from a business perspective is to continue targetting the existing audiences and try to cultivate a meaningful periphery demographic when possible (i.e. K-On's success with teenage girls).

If the plotting and writing are great with good-to-great animation to back them up with, then that's a good ingredient for survival and nothing will stop it. The only two things stopping universal appealing of anime (as a whole) from being made is apparent lack of evidence of such an audience in Japan and willing to promotoe the shows. Also, what other factors can help anime get out of the more gutters?

edited 14th Feb '14 5:23:30 PM by Buzzinator

"You can run, but you can't hide from the Buzzinator!"

I was under the impression that KLK did reach 10k+?

Thing is, in the past few years Moe has become more a genre than just a character characteristic. Entire shows can be based off them. Many people have come to consider this the beginning of a Dork Age specific for anime. Hayao Miyazaki and others have commented on this and on how the industry isn't really being original so much as pandering to the masses just to survive.

I don't think anyone here necessarily hates it so much as they hate how overblown it's become, how it's come to dominate the industry. I like moe in small doses. I don't like how there's a half dozen or more different moe anime each season competing for attention.

I suppose it doesn't have to, in a manner of speaking, but that's not the current issue. The problem here is a reliance on a trope as a gimmick to attract attention, not as an element that comes up every now and then.

I want you to look at the Moe page, particularly the Anime & Manga sub-page. Entire series are based on moe. It's large enough that it had to be split into two folders, for crying aloud. Now, I can accept Moe as a genre in case there's something other than that, but there needs to be some actual substance to sustain it.

It's fine for the originators and codifiers of the genre (Key Visual Art's works, Azumanga Daioh, K-ON, etc) because they actually put their own style and details into the work, or because they are their own thing, but shows Following the Leader result in shallow, badly-made results in the long run.


The only thing I wager could possibly work for the industry would be some huge, innovative, ground-breaking work (or a string of excellent ones) generating change in the industry and what people think of current anime; get people worked up about things other than moe (and fanservice, to whatever extent that's possible).

The gears of progress work slowly, so I don't think it's going to change things very fast, but things must change eventually. Considering the cyclical nature of entertainment, with any luck a second Renaissance Age of Animation will come by.

edited 14th Feb '14 5:26:23 PM by Crinias

x5 As with every other entertainment media, first and foremost it is about being enjoyable, or maybe, fun. Unlike a novel where good writing DOES mean better quality(but not necessarily better plot), an anime(hell no, screw anime, animation overall) is more versatile(but not necessarily better than novels, not implying that at all, getting that out there), it can rely on good plot, good execution, good humor, good animation, good soundtrack and voice acting, or number of other things that may or may not actually exist to be enjoyable. A moe show is obviously not going to have much in terms of plot, and that's perfectly fine as long as it does the moe aspects well, because usually it is fun.

I absolutely hate the preconception that anime is a plot-driven medium that many people seem to think, when it never was. Many anime shows are indeed plot-driven, and they're good too, but that does not mean anime as a medium has to be.

Nothing wrong with moe being what it is. Although I do disagree about the trope originators and codifiers of the trope getting a free pass. A work should always be judged by what it is, rather than what studio makes it or its history and resume(Although that IS part of what it is, you kinda get what I mean).

And at this point, define what 'substance' even mean. If it simply means deep and meaningful, well, that was never the point. If it means good plot, look above.

edited 14th Feb '14 5:32:14 PM by danna45

"And you must be Jonathan Joestar!" - Sue