Ambiguous Name: One For Sorrow Two For Joy

Ominous usually has negative connotations, but I would not say that "omen" does. I think that it would be a legitimate word to use.

Magpie Omen would be a clear and concise option, if not particularly witty.

Portent and Omen are synonymous with each other - so either both can work, or neither does. I'm fine with whichever.

Agreed.

@ Doktorvon Eurotrash, Feb. 7...

"Tidings of Magpies" means both "news or information of magpies" and "groups of magpies." Admittedly, the denotations of both meanings lack the element of foretelling, but (and admittedly, I'm being subjective here) "Tidings of Magpies"—possibly in part because of its double meaning—catches my attention in a way that "Magpies as Portents" and "Magpies as Omens" do not.

Eh, now I really think it's time to set-up a crowner for the new name

Done (although a little clumsily—this is my first crowner).

Update: Moderators, thanks for making the thread/crowner connection.

edited 13th Feb '14 7:27:14 AM by SciFiMs

I edited the options a bit, since listing them as URLs are difficult to read and confusing.

edited 13th Feb '14 6:54:47 AM by theAdeptrogue

No problem, Adeptrogue. Thanks for making the crowner more readable.

I think we should still be trying to come up with better, though. I don't think "Magpies As Portents" actually communicates the nature of the trope very well.

johnnye, Magpies as Portents is admittedly not the most exciting trope name, but I think it nicely sums up the trope. Why specifically do you think it doesn't?

Well I suppose because it seems too vague, but thinking about it this is the wall we keep coming up against — the trope itself is quite specific, and it's hard to sum it up snappily.

Well, let's see how the vote goes. Throughout this thread, there are a number of posts in favor of Magpies as Omens, Magpies as Portents, and Portentous Magpies. If there's been a mass change of mind, so be it. On the other hand, the aforementioned "contenders" are just about equivalent in my opinion (and I believe far superior to One for Sorrow, Two for Joy). If a consensus can be built for one of them, that will send a clear message.

At this point, I believe "Magpies as Portents" has the numbers to call the crowner (10 yeas/4 nays [2.50:1 ratio]; 75% to the 25% of "Magpies as Omens" with nothing else in the yea column; crowner up more than a week). The one recently articulated objection is that johnnye would like something "snappier." That's the sort of thing that tends to come in a flash of inspiration—it could come today or it could come two years from today. In the mean time, I'd like to get rid of OFSTFJ as soon as we can.

So how about this? Perhaps we can give johnnye the rest of the weekend, and just in case he has a lot planned for the weekend, all of Monday. If he comes up with something viable, then we leave the crowner open. If he doesn't by end of Monday, I'd really like to call it.

Nah, call it. We've spent plenty of time on this.

Calling for Magpies as Portents.

Are description and examples all ready to go?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Am on my way out to do some errands, but will say for now that the current One for Sorrow, Two for Joy is in pretty good shape. I think we were going to change the version of the rhyme used at the beginning, but otherwise it's pretty focused and the examples are relevant. As I recall, a lot of this got cleaned up when the Thieving Magpie trope was created a couple months back.

OK, I replaced the previous rhyme in the intro with the Magpie theme song and made a few other minor tweaks. I think it's in pretty good shape.

The old page has now been moved to the new one. I think this thread can be locked.

I changed Magpies, but the discussion page still needs a note.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Septimus, thanks for changing Magpies, and I'll add the note tonight.

The new description is a bit wordy. Are all those parenthetical comments really necessary? And what exactly is the relevance of the mirror test to magpies being used as portents?

edited 24th Feb '14 4:29:00 AM by Catbert

I don't think the second paragraph is necessary. The description about the scientists' findings on Magpie intelligence explains nothing about the trope itself, and sound more like a Trivia/Useful Note. The bracketed line in paragraph 3 could be removed, since the description itself don't need to list down an example of misuse.

By the way, why is the OFSTFJ page blanked?

edited 24th Feb '14 4:52:07 AM by theAdeptrogue

I think we can simplify the description to something along these lines. Anyone have any suggestions?

---

In traditional folklore Magpies are often viewed as omens or portents of the future. The significance of magpies sometimes depends on exactly how many birds there are. Some superstitions also include ways of warding off the bad luck of a lone magpie, ranging from a simple salute to more complex rituals involving pinching, spitting or saying certain phrases.

Compare with Thieving Magpie, which is about magpies' compulsion to steal, particularly shiny objects. See also Ravens and Crows, which are fellow corvids and are sometimes also associated with omens.

edited 24th Feb '14 9:35:04 AM by Catbert

That's a good start.