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Okay, every topic that has even remotely to do with the middle east keeps getting more general news put into it which removes focus from the original topic.

As such, I'm creating this thread as a general middle east and north africa topic. That means anything to do with the Arab Spring or Israel and Palestine should be kept to those threads and anything to do with more generic news (for example, new Saudi regulations on the number of foreign workers or the Lebanese elections next year, etc.) should be posted here.

I hope the mods will find this a clear enough statement of intent to open the thread.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#651: Oct 1st 2015 at 11:11:37 AM

[up]Damn you, now I want to binge on Lethal Weapon movies.

As for the spoilt brats, may they be sent to the Yemeni front.

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#652: Oct 1st 2015 at 10:47:25 PM

Saudi royal calls for regime change in Riyadh

A senior Saudi prince has launched an unprecedented call for change in the country’s leadership, as it faces its biggest challenge in years in the form of war, plummeting oil prices and criticism of its management of Mecca, scene of last week’s hajj tragedy.

The prince, one of the grandsons of the state’s founder, Abdulaziz Ibn Saud, has told the Guardian that there is disquiet among the royal family – and among the wider public – at the leadership of King Salman, who acceded the throne in January.

The prince, who is not named for security reasons, wrote two letters earlier this month calling for the king to be removed.

“The king is not in a stable condition and in reality the son of the king [Mohammed bin Salman] is ruling the kingdom,” the prince said. “So four or possibly five of my uncles will meet soon to discuss the letters. They are making a plan with a lot of nephews and that will open the door. A lot of the second generation is very anxious.”

“The public are also pushing this very hard, all kinds of people, tribal leaders,” the prince added. “They say you have to do this or the country will go to disaster.”

A clutch of factors are buffeting King Salman, his crown prince, Mohammed bin Nayef, and the deputy crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman.

A double tragedy in Mecca – the collapse of a crane that killed more than 100, followed by a stampede last week that killed 700 – has raised questions not just about social issues, but also about royal stewardship of the holiest site in Islam.

As usual, the Saudi authorities have consistently shrugged off any suggestion that a senior member of the government may be responsible for anything that has gone wrong.

Local people, however, have made clear on social media and elsewhere that they no longer believe such claims.

“The people inside [the kingdom] know what’s going on but they can’t say. The problem is the corruption in using the resources of the country for building things in the right form,” said an activist who lives in Mecca but did not want to be named for fear of repercussions.

“Unfortunately the government points the finger against the lower levels, saying for example: ‘Where are the ambulances? Where are the healthcare workers?’ They try to escape the real reason of such disaster,” he added.

Saudi religious and political legitimacy is predicated on their claim that they manage the holy sites properly and make them safely accessible for all Muslims. Since there are no monarchies in Islam and Saudi Arabia itself is not mentioned in the Qur’an, legitimacy is a fundamental issue for the Saudis and the Hajj disasters have been extremely damaging.

But just as urgent is oil, the price of which has dropped more than 50% in the past year. On Monday, the Financial Times reported that Saudi Arabia has withdrawn as much as $70bn (£46bn) from overseas investment funds to shore up its fiscal position in the face of tumbling oil prices

According to Alastair Newton, director of Alavan Business Advisory, Saudi Arabia’s published budget this year was based on oil trading at about $90 a barrel. But because of costly ad hoc items such as royal largesse after King Salman’s succession, the war in Yemen, and domestic security against the Isis threat, the fiscal position is only in balance at about $110.

With oil now trading below $50, fiscal weakness is starting to tell. The Saudi benchmark Tadawul All Share index has fallen by more than 30% in the past 12 months.

“They have enough reserves to sustain this situation for at least one year although it is very costly for them,” said Khairallah Khairallah, a former managing editor of the Saudi-owned al-Hayat newspaper.

The International Monetary Fund is already predicting Saudi Arabia’s budget deficit to exceed $107bn this year. Yet the budget announced for next year has marginally increased.

“The king is in charge of oil policy in the kingdom together with his son Mohammed bin Salman. Mohammed bin Salman is also responsible for [state oil firm] Aramco. The crown prince [Mohammed bin Nayef] is mainly focused on security. These are the main players in Saudi Arabia. They divide the responsibility,” said Khairallah Khairallah.

Prince Mohammed bin Salman is a new arrival to the Saudi senior leadership team but has already become one of the most controversial.

Although still very young by Saudi standards – officially 35 but rumoured to be much younger – he holds a multitude of posts including minister of defence and chair of the Council for Economic and Development Affairs, which is the country’s main economic policymaking committee.

This makes him responsible for many of Saudi Arabia’s problems, above all the war in neighbouring Yemen, where rebel Houthis have come under attack from Saudi aircraft and ground forces.

Many Saudis are sickened by the sight of the Arab world’s richest country pummelling its poorest, and as the cost in lives and treasure grows, criticism is mounting that Prince Mohammed bin Salman– whose unofficial nickname is “Reckless” – rushed in without a proper military strategy or an exit plan.

“This is a war against the Yemeni nation and against Yemen becoming independent,” said Sgt Maj Dakheel bin Naser Al Qahtani, a former head of air force operations at King Abdulaziz airbase, Dhahran, who defected from the Saudi armed forces last year.

“It has no legitimate political foundation and it is not what the people want,” he said. “Ninety per cent of people in Saudi Arabia don’t want this to happen, exactly the opposite of what the media shows.

“It has come about due to the absence of a national citizens’ establishment in Saudi Arabia and because Al Saud have put their own interests ahead of the national interest.”

The letters in Arabic calling for the overthrow of the king have been read more than 2m times. The letters call on the 13 surviving sons of Ibn Saud – specifically the princes Talal, Turki and Ahmed bin Abdulaziz – to unite and remove the leadership in a palace coup, before choosing a new government from within the royal family.

“Allow the oldest and most capable to take over the affairs of the state, let the new king and crown prince take allegiance from all, and cancel the strange, new rank of second deputy premier,” states the first letter.

“We are calling for the sons of Ibn Saud from the oldest Bandar, to the youngest, Muqrin, to make an urgent meeting with the senior family members to investigate the situation and find out what can be done to save the country, to make changes in the important ranks, to bring in expertise from the ruling family whatever generation they are from.”

The letters are unlike anything that has happened since King Faisal deposed King Saud in a palace coup in 1964.

The prince behind the letters claims to have received widespread support from both within the royal family and society at large. But only one other senior royal has so far publicly endorsed the letter, which may be unsurprising given the Saudis’ brutal history of punishing political opponents.

Like many modern Arab countries Saudi Arabia is a 20th-century construction. Since 1932, when Saudi Arabia was founded, the royal family has kept the country together masterfully. But as the economic and political situation in and around Saudi Arabia deteriorates, and royal family infighting intensifies, the possibility of a profound change is growing more likely.

The untranslated original is also available on the article's original page.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#653: Oct 2nd 2015 at 12:54:31 AM

Read this yesterday. I wonder this will place out, if its confirmed.

Free Princes movement revived? Or perhaps a Faisal style coup with Salman standing in for Saud?

edited 2nd Oct '15 12:56:21 AM by FFShinra

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#654: Oct 2nd 2015 at 5:02:56 AM

Wow. Just... Wow. Never had I expected that a prince from the Saud dynasty would actually call for a major regime change like this. Perhaps there is yet hope for something good to be salvaged from that clan.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#655: Oct 2nd 2015 at 5:29:16 AM

Or maybe there are ulterior motives involved? I am a cynic at times.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#656: Oct 2nd 2015 at 5:41:38 AM

The death toll from the Mina stampede is now over one thousand, and there are rumors it was caused by Mohammad bin Salman al Saud's entourage blocking the road to allow the prince access.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#657: Oct 2nd 2015 at 9:08:25 AM

[up] I wonder if that led to what Krieger posted above?

Then again, the most stable place for political change to come in Saudi Arabia is from Internal Reformists within the Saud family.

edited 2nd Oct '15 9:10:58 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#658: Oct 2nd 2015 at 11:30:41 AM

[up]Indeed.

The more I hear about this, the more I see the Saud-Faisal parallels from fifty years ago.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#659: Oct 2nd 2015 at 3:46:49 PM

From what I heard over the past few days, apparently some of the African pilgrims that have been apprehended for their involvement in the incident have confessed to having been paid by Iranian agents to instigate the stampede in conjuction with Iranian pilgrims, by purposefully taking a side road that normally sees little to no traffic during this period due to how small it is compared to the main road, and then come out of said side road and walk in the opposite direction of the main road's flow, relying on their numbers and the advantage in physical bulk that the average African tends to possess over non-Africans (no, seriously, by and large you'll find more tall and muscularly-bulky people among healthy Africans than you would among healthy members of Asian ethnicities).

edited 2nd Oct '15 3:48:55 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#661: Oct 2nd 2015 at 4:37:35 PM

Yeah, well, put that with the fact that Iran wasted no time in throwing accusations and insults at us within mere hours of the incident, long before an investigation could even start to try putting together the pieces of the puzzle behind it.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#662: Oct 2nd 2015 at 4:38:22 PM

Not sure I buy that myself.

EDIT-

[up]Considering the state of affairs in the region, quick condemnation isn't exactly a smoking gun. Saudia accuses Tehran of backstopping the Houthis in Yemen after all, and they have yet to provide evidence.

edited 2nd Oct '15 4:39:24 PM by FFShinra

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#663: Oct 2nd 2015 at 4:40:00 PM

Confessed or 'confessed'? Also Iran being willing to shit talk without evidence doesn't make it culpable for the event, it just makes it a country desperate for a chance to shit talk.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#664: Oct 19th 2015 at 6:42:35 PM

More to the point, it's a political rival of Saudi Arabia with a lot of citizens on the hajj. A disaster of this scale, which would have put a lot of Iranians in danger, seems like a pretty good reason to get angry at a country they don't much like anyway even before the casualty count and demographics came out.

Speaking of, deaths from the stampede have now passed the two thousand mark.

What's precedent ever done for us?
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#665: Oct 19th 2015 at 6:46:53 PM

Holy shit...

EDIT- 404 error.

edited 19th Oct '15 6:47:13 PM by FFShinra

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#666: Oct 20th 2015 at 3:56:27 AM

King Salman has allegedly been hospitalised. David Oualaalou of the Huffington Post thinks it might possibly be a coup.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#667: Oct 20th 2015 at 6:51:15 AM

Jumping the gun a bit, no? Abdullah was in and out of hospitals all the time, if I recall..

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#668: Oct 20th 2015 at 2:58:46 PM

One detail about the 2,177 death count - it's been calculated by adding together all the foreign nationals named and identified by their home countries who died in the stampede. There's still a lot of unidentified bodies left to go, and Saudi Arabia hasn't released the same information for its own citizens who died yet. Iran's estimate of 4,700 casualties may seem ludicrously huge, and they have plenty of reason to exaggerate, but they honestly might not be that far off.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#669: Oct 20th 2015 at 3:32:52 PM

Jordan is a Saudi client state? (From the Borgia article.) *blinkblink* That sounds like a fair bit of exaggeration.

edited 20th Oct '15 3:33:05 PM by Ramidel

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#670: Oct 20th 2015 at 6:53:32 PM

<Looks at Bahrain, looks at Jordan, looks back to Bahrain, looks back to Jordan>

Client state? I think not. Honestly, if the Hashemites were so inclined, they could probably conquer SA, given the level of ineptitude of the Royal Saudi Army versus the cool professionalism of the Jordanians.

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#671: Oct 25th 2015 at 11:39:37 AM

[up] As much as I like the Hashemites, they probably could not fund that army without Saudi support. If the house of Saud falls they will be in for a world of pain.

Raped, pregnant and afraid of being jailed I will probably regret this statement later, but screw it I'm pissed off, but what the hell is it with wealthy men from the Gulf States and rape!! I know the rich in all nations like to try to be above the law, but every other week their is an article about some rich fucker from the Gulf States,usually Saudi Arabia, raping someone. At least in the days of Al Saud they would cain people like that for embarrassing the country, but now nobody seems to give a shit.

edited 25th Oct '15 11:43:26 AM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#673: Oct 25th 2015 at 1:50:19 PM

When people say that South Asian workers are treated like slaves in the Gulf they aren't exaggerating.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#674: Oct 25th 2015 at 4:11:42 PM

Mmm. My father has an undying hatred for Kuwaitis for such treatment at what was his very first job abroad. He cheered when Saddam conquered them.

Sadly, this has translated into general bigotry toward all Muslims and Arabs over the years....

edited 25th Oct '15 4:11:57 PM by FFShinra

AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job

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