YuGiOh Troper Format Thread

Alright then, I shouldn't have spoken for him myself.

@Stone: We're going card by card, and stating our own opinions. I don't believe we're acting in a manner to force anyone out. If you have an issue, please bring it up here. However, I personally think that a spelling correction such as that one shouldn't make an issue.

@Irene: people's opinions are of equal weight here.

We should definitely test changes to more than one card at a time. I might recommend testing all the changes at once, because that would be the final situation we'd end up with. I might also recommend fewer cards tested at once. However, we should settle at some point how we're actually going to test. That doesn't need to be done now, though, as we still have a long way to go with the list.

edited 24th Dec '13 3:08:47 PM by wanderlustwarrior

The sad, REAL American dichotomy

Guess that explains why I feel the need to hit cards in the decks I play.

Anyway, I fail to see how only Uniflora and Tiaramisu are the only things keeping Rescue Cat from coming back. One of those monsters wasn't even around when it got banned, so there's definitely a hell of a lot more.

Putting aside that it's a much better TGU, you can go for double Darksoul/Darksoul + Tuner for an instant Hyunlei, which still ends in a search at the end of the turn, Tanukits get an instant Xyz, double Currantosa to pop two cards and then Xyz, you can destroy two Fire King Kirins, then there's Madolches... it simply does way, way, way too much.

edited 24th Dec '13 3:07:01 PM by TropayXion

Stones would be Philosopher Stones. Stonedog is probably the name you mean?

And yes, I do think multiple moves at once is good. One at a time is too slow and would take forever. What number would be good? 5? 10?

Now I'm seeing some explanations that help. This is what I meant earlier. Explain the problems more clearly than just say "it can do a lot". This isn't like Magical Scientist where... it's very easy to understand what he does. He can make a lot of powerful Xyz and OTK. There's enough to do so. 2 Utopias and a single Excalibur does it.(if you want more information, but yeah)

I still wouldn't mind a limited test, but this helps determine it better.

edited 24th Dec '13 3:10:03 PM by Irene

Thank you for that.

Anyway, several of us have suggested hits to cards we use. For example, I was called out for supposedly only preferencing decks I use, when I suggested hits to some of my main cards (Dark Simorgh, for example), and didn't say anything about returning others to levels I used them at (Dimensional Fissure, for example). We shouldn't be so quick to point fingers in saying we're being hypocrites when for the most part we're just sticking with stuff we know about.

edited 24th Dec '13 3:13:08 PM by wanderlustwarrior

The sad, REAL American dichotomy

As for testing, no need to unban everything we decide upon before testing. We might as well try out some cards and, if it turns out they are broken, we can just ban it then and there.

He said it, not me. But still, we need to make him feel more welcome here and give detailed explanations of the problems that could occur. He doesn't have an issue with it being Forbidden, but a lot of the reasons why were very lackluster and lacking in detail. I know Rescue Cat can do a lot of combos, I know it can make a fair amount of Xyz/Synchros. But that alone doesn't make it broken. It's multiple times per turn, big problems with things like Hootcake, Tiramisu, Uniflora(which, to be honest, is not exactly what I'd call great design either...).

I'm pretty sure that for Madolche, not all their Monsters are Beast-type, so Uniflora wouldn't be a problem there. I don't think X-Sabers are either. It's just a Beast deck that it could do stuff in. Just to clarify.

Anyway, 5 or 10 cards unbanned at the time?

edited 24th Dec '13 3:18:03 PM by Irene

It's nice to feel welcome, but we don't "need" to do jack. No one is pushing anyone out, and maybe we could possibly be more explanatory, but we've already said a lot and more on Rescue Cat than other cards. If the point isn't seen by now, it isn't likely to be.

We've already decided on simple majority vote and agreeing to disagree on some things. I don't think there needs to be much more to it than that.

edited 24th Dec '13 3:32:35 PM by wanderlustwarrior

The sad, REAL American dichotomy

Uniflora is far from the only reason Rescue Cat is banned and I think you need to stop focussing on it.

Your statement about Wind-Ups is nothing but pure ignorance - since they're a toolboxy to all hell deck they can go for almost EVERYTHING in their Deck from 2 Rats. Getting to a Magician means a 5-monster field for the cost of one card, with Rank 3, 4 and 5 options amongst that, depending on your exact mix of Warrior, Shark, Soldier and Magician. Some outlier variants can get to other options (Honeybee, Rank 1 - T.G. Striker/Genex Ally Birdman, Synchro options.)

edited 24th Dec '13 3:33:09 PM by Plumbum

Curse the ill fortune that led you to me.

The Madolche Beasts include Hootcake and the X-Saber Beasts include Darksoul and... The 1600 ATK Tuner. They might not be the whole Deck, but they're parts of the Deck that can explode even without Cat's help.

Anyway, I'd say test 5 at a time to keep things relatively simple.

edited 24th Dec '13 4:27:13 PM by TropayXion

5 at a time sounds good, then.

Aye! I agree with 5 at a time as well.

Anyways we still got more cards to cover and I'll post up the next set soon unless Plum wants to weigh in on Set 3.

Unfortunately it's Christmas, so I won't be postin' it now.

Happy Holidays!

GIVE ME YOUR FACE

Alright, Set 3's results so far:

Glow-Up Bulb

• Banned: III
• Limited testing: II

Magical Scientist

• Banned: IIIII
• Limited testing:

Makyura the Destructor

• Banned: IIIII
• Limited testing:

Mind Master

• Banned: IIIII
• Limited testing:

Rescue Cat

• Banned: III
• Limited testing: II

Though Krika's no on Rescue Cat is not yet counted (because he hasn't put forth a clearly stated opinion on that or other cards), we know that's what it's going to be.

We have 10 11 Tropers who have so far participated in this thread. That should mean that 6 votes makes a majority if everyone votes, which not everyone has. However, 5 votes one way still reaches a plurality, and we can move on from a card if it gets 5 6 opinions going one way, regardless on if everyone has voted on it or not.

• Wander (me)
• Evii
• Stan
• Plum
• Irene
• Dog
• Phil
• Krika
• Xion
• Des
• Gilphon

The only cards we have left to reach a firm resolution on are Glow-Up Bulb and Rescue Cat.

edited 26th Dec '13 10:41:19 PM by wanderlustwarrior

The sad, REAL American dichotomy

Allow me to join the thread and vote against Rescue Cat, then.

I mean, Cat's much better designed cousin has caused no end of trouble in the meta lately, so I don't see how any good could come of Cat coming back.

Glow-up Bulb… I don't have a strong opinion about, but I favour the idea of testing it as limiting. I don't remember it being that problematic.

edited 26th Dec '13 9:27:48 PM by Gilphon

What's you opinions on the rest of the cards?

GIVE ME YOUR FACE

Well, I didn't encounter all the cards listed above, but...
Makyura the Destructor: Trap cards from your hand? Hahaha No. It's banned and it should stay there.
Rescue Cat: I agree with Krika's points, especially the ones concerning banning cards to allow banned cards to come back.
Magical Scientist: Seems to exist only to fuel OTKs/FTKs. Banned.

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground

Alright then, so that leaves Glow Up Bulb at 3-3, and Mind Master at 5 against. We just need those to get 6 votes one way or another, and we can move on.

The sad, REAL American dichotomy

Actually I think we can move on now.

Bulb: Undecided(We can dispute over this one later).

Scientist: Banned

Makyura: Banned

Master: Banned

Cat: Banned

Set 4!

Sangan

Sinister Serpent

Substitoad

Tribe Infecting Virus

Victory Dragon

edited 29th Dec '13 11:59:47 AM by PhilosopherStones

GIVE ME YOUR FACE

Let's just finish what we're on now. There's only a couple more votes left.

The sad, REAL American dichotomy

• Sangan - As far as I know, the only real problem with him was Tour Guide. And then they fixed his Effect so you can't just detach it to search, so... what was the problem with him, again? Unbanned with Limited testing.
• Sinister Serpent - Kinda iffy in this one. I don't think it really caused a problem until Mermails came along, and since they're stupid broken already, I'm not too fond of giving them a boost. Beyond that, it's re-usable discard fodder, but searching for it seems not all that worth it, unless you're running some sort of discard-heavy deck that absolutely relies on this thing. At 1, and with a nerf to Mermails, this can probably come back. Banned for now.
• Substitoad - Mass milling and FTK decks. Hahaha no. Banned without testing.
• Tribe-Infecting Virus - Infinite destruction Effect that would benefit the likes of Mermails and Dark World? Yeah, uh... Banned without testing.
• Victory Dragon - Honestly, if you ever get into a situation in which you can pull off this thing's Effect, you probably deserve the win. Anyways, very, very difficult to pull off and more of a hindrance than anything, no point in it being banned at all. Unlimit or whatever.

Victory Dragon was banned because people scooped rather than lose the match, and Konami thinks that's bad for their tourneys; IIRC it wasn't banned because it's OP or anything similar.

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground

Mhm. Unban Sangan and Victory Dragon, keep TIF and Toad banned. Shame Mermails exist, because otherwise I could support SS returning, but as things are, keep it banned.

Pretty sure that was a TCG exclusive problem, though. And if people are going to quit that round, it's still one point for you. Ana again, it seems ridiculously difficult and convoluted to use it in an official tournament, anyway.

It was mostly because of the fights and unsportsmanlike conduct.

Duelist 1: I attack you directly with Victory Dragon.

Duelist 2: I scoop. Let's go to round 2.

Duelist 1: No, I won the match. I beat you with Victory Dragon.

Duelist 2: Nuh-uh! I scooped!

Duelist 1: Just take your loss like a man!

Duelist 2: What'd you say about my manhood?

*fist fight ensues*

edited 29th Dec '13 2:28:10 PM by TehStanman

"Why does everything have to loop back to YGO?" -Guy who ruined YGO

While that's a good reason to ban it, it's not a reason we need to concern ourselves with, surely.

Sangan: Never could get behind pointless generic searching with no actual real downsides. There's better ways to improve the game by making more type/attribute searchers that have requirements to get their searches off. Banned without testing.

Sinister Serpent: Card is honestly crap. Not worth running it with or without King of the Feral Imps. At best it provides a decent fodder... which is often irrelevant. Not great in Mermails either since they have better choices that gain an effect. Limited with testing.

Victory Dragon: Oh, hell no. It's not just the scoop rules. It's the fact it has a beyond broken effect. I don't care about the requirements. Nobody should be able to win a match without playing best 2 out of 3. Also a ruling nightmare. Banned without testing.

Substitoad: The variant of Future Fusion/Painful Choice. It's easy to use it for OTK's with or without Ronintoadin. You don't even need Mass Driver for that. Filling up your graveyard for free is also stupid, especially if you can do it constant. This allows you to summon Moulinglacia, including multiple copies. You don't need the effect to go off more than once when you have easily summonable beatsticks. Banned without testing.

Tribe-Infecting Virus: We're see a huge variety of decks with either pure or non-pure Types. Would also prevent dumb monster lockdowns like the Naturias. Also hyper vulnerable to everything before its effect works. Terrible in Mermails due to being unreliable for discard purposes(either you can't discard often enough or you have little to discard). Limited with testing. Probably could easily go to 3, to be honest.