Ukraine protests: Thousands march through capital
- over 100,000 by some counts
Ukrainian protesters besiege government building
Clashes amid huge Ukraine protest against U-turn on EU
Over 300,000 defy protest ban in Ukraine- "Fierce clashes erupt after protesters take to streets again, chanting "revolution" as anger against government grows."
What started as a protest against the decision not to sign an agreement with the EU seems to have escalated into a "Color Revolution" or "Arab Spring" style movement to force the government to resign. By some reports, the police are using violent tactics to suppress the street protests.
The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country. The current regime of President Viktor Yanukovich is part of that camp. The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society.
EDIT (2/24/2022)
This thread was originally opened in 2013 during the beginning of the revolt in Ukraine that eventually over-threw the dictatorship of the Yanukovyich regime and instituted democratic elections soon afterward. As of this writing, in the aftermath of the Russian invasion that began on 2/23, it is not clear whether or for how long Ukraine will continue to exist as an independent country.
Statements made nine years ago still seem relevant: "The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country... The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society." Some people have expressed the view that the confrontation between Russia and Ukraine, beginning in 2014, never really ended.
The invasion is also a result of certain grievances proclaimed by Vladimir Putin, the current President of Russia, and used by him as justification for armed attack and occupation. Western governments, and others around the world, have joined together in condemnation of this attack.
While we do not know what the ultimate outcome of these events will be, this thread will continue to be made available as a place to record news, ask questions and express opinions about the "Crisis in Ukraine."
This map will help track the latest developments.
Do not post anything about the Ukrainian military movement and strategy. This could actually result in casualties.
No discussion regarding nuclear war. As nuclear weapons are not being used by either side, nuclear war is off-topic.
When posting social media links, please (1) state the source [e.g. Reuters reporter? State-sponsored Facebook account? Civilian Twitter?] (2) clarify if it is fact or opinion and (3) summarize the information being presented.
Edited by Tabs on Mar 20th 2022 at 4:26:26 AM
Would that it were so simple.
Ukraine can't take it back. There's literally no path forward. The people don't want them there and the local Russian military footprint is too large. Calling Crimea "Ukrainian" is really more of a legal fiction to maintain (necessary) sanctions on Russia, but it takes a very optimistic mind to think Ukraine is ever getting it back.
Besides, they still have to drive Russia out of Donbass.
edited 22nd May '18 7:52:04 AM by CrimsonZephyr
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
Well good look with the regulars cause the separatists have shown a new MLRS system they’re using in the field...
I know the ceasefire broke down again and lately I heard stories of Ukrainian Spestnaz doing black ops in Donbass.
edited 22nd May '18 7:44:17 PM by Ominae
"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
Russian Foreign Ministry is rejecting the report that their Buks were used and insisted they don’t use it anymore.
"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Well yeah. If they accepted it it would conflict with the truth that it was all done by a Ukrainian jet with a service ceiling drastically below the altitude the airliner was flying at.
"Yup. That tasted purple."
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
Arkady Babchenko was reported to have staged his own death with help from Kiev to catch his assassins off his guard.
Many journalists are suggesting that this is real "Fake news", but are relieved to see that he's okay with the assassin caught. Even Russia is critical of this.
"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Figure of Hourai
Calling it fake news is remarkably disingenuous, because it implies that the reporting was in any way fake. Which it obviously wasn't, everyone was reporting what appeared to be the truth.
Such a meaningless term.
Avatar Source
Oh, bother.
It's not fake news. It's news about something that was faked. There's a difference. The first implies fault on the journalists' end, which is bullshit. They were not in on this.
edited 30th May '18 9:42:20 PM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprised
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44311201
Kiev is in trouble for faking the journalist's murder. He's also a Putin critic.
"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Those criticisms come off as unbearably naive.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Beware the Crazy Man.
I fault the government in Kiev, not the journalists. Great way to knock on your own credibility, Poroshenko...
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
John Oliver has this covered.
"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Someone please explain to me why Ukraine faking this journalist's death to capture his would-be assassins is allegedly bad.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
The law in the night
For one, the next dead journalist will be 101% dismissed as another false flag to blame on the Russians.
Inter arma enim silent leges
A lot of politicians went to bat against Russia over his apparent death when it happened. It was even brought up in front of the UN. Russia has a history of brutalizing journalists, after all. Not only does this make everyone who stepped up look a bit dumb, it’s going to cast doubt on every Russian journalist’s death from now until forever. Next time a Putin critic winds up mysteriously dead you know that this is gonna be one of the first things they bring up.
They should have sent a poet.
Beware the Crazy Man.
Indeed. It is a subject to be taken seriously, not to be used as a ruse, for exactly the reasons stated above.
Also, Ukraine itself isn't exactly trustworthy. The reasons given at the press conference could also be a lie...after all, they did just lie about his death. It raises too many questions when none needed to be raised at all.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTWo59RTV84
This Trevor Noah had a reporter asking Trump on his intention of getting Russia back to G7 to be G8 again on his thoughts of the Crimean occupation.
"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Beware the Crazy Man.
The BBC is reporting that the separatist leader in Donetsk, Alexander Zakharchenko, was killed in a blast at a cafe today.
Could either be Ukraine or Russia. Ukraine, for obvious reasons, Russia because the guy was supposedly on the outs with Moscow.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
Got some intel based on defense analysts doing studies on the bombing based on tweets:
- 1) The Ukrainian SBU (duh)
- 2) Donetsk rivals (Pushilin has been feuding with Zakharchenko lately. Also Khodakovsky, Zakharchenko's long-time rival)
- 3) Moscow, cleaning up
- And the fourth option, which is also very appealing: the non-Surkov, Moscow/Kremlin curator or power player who wanted a change or is making a move. Surkov isn't all-powerful.
- 1. What for? Ukraine understands he's a changeable puppet without real power and would better see him in jail than dead.
- 2. Maybe, I can imagine ex-SBU operative, warlord Khodakovsky organizing it, but not Pushilin - MMM ponzi scheme representative in Donetsk before the war
- 3. "Moscow, cleaning up" - plausible, Moscow doesn't really need odious figures involved in military actions in 2014, any civilian "leader" would be better for further attempts to return the occupied region to Ukraine as another Transnistria.
Maybe, FSB strengthening its powers in the occupied territory as we saw it before in Luhansk when Plotnitsky was ousted and "state security minister" Pasechnik took his seat. If so, then we'll see a siloviki-related figure atop "DNR" soon.
- If SBU, then they lack motive, just for fun?
- If Khodakovsky, then his motive is crystal clear: he's been a rival of Zakharchenko since 2014.
- If FSB, then the motive can be strengthening their powers in the region and diminishing Surkov's.
- if Kremlin, then ...there can be a few reasons:
It’s been mentioned in Ukraine that ex-DNR culture minister Yuri Lectures (not sure if surname is correct) mentioned a gut feeling that Zarachenko will be taken out.
He also defected to Kiev IIRC.
Edited by Ominae on Aug 31st 2018 at 6:14:57 AM
"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
The law in the night
Putinik News is also claiming the US was involved in his death.
So, how long until the Russians restart hostilities in Ukraine?
Inter arma enim silent leges
Beware the Crazy Man.
I'd wager as soon as Idlib falls.
I'm in broad agreement.
SBU might have wanted a PR win, given the elections are imminent in Kiev. But otherwise, I agree, better he be in jail than dead for reasons you stated.
I'd wager it's prep work for possible resumption of hostilities. Having only half of two provinces isn't much to wager. Also, with the aforementioned elections, it might be a bargaining chip with whoever succeeds Poroshenko (cuz seriously, unless he goes full dictator, he ain't winning reelection), likely Tymoshenko, so that they can revise the Minsk Accords.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
Zarachenko had a massive funeral and many blame Ukraine for instigating the bombing attack (duh).
Moscow now believes that the attack can derail future talks on the status of Eastern Ukraine.
Dmitry Trapeznikov is the acting PM for Donetsk.
An investigation to Zarchenko's death is starting, but I found this source for now:
https://www.uawire.org/bomb-which-killed-zakharchenko-was-concealed-in-chandelier
It suggests that the bomber who planed the IED inside a chandelier and triggered via mobile phone was someone who worked with Zarchenko's staff long enough that he could have planted it without being seen as suspicious.
Edited by Ominae on Sep 2nd 2018 at 8:01:27 AM
"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Beware the Crazy Man.
Did not expect the huge funeral. Still doesn't really hint who is responsible sadly, but it does suggest that the incident will be used for some future action on Russia's part...
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
They have been transporting stuff that was supposed to go to Vostok-2018 to the Ukrainian border. Mostly older tanks and other stuff that OSINT picked up.
Whether this is gearing up for something big or the usual quiet shuffling is anybody's guess.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Beware the Crazy Man.
This will be a hell of a winter...
I'm just curious what direction any future offensive would go: Land bridge to Crimea, taking Kharkov, simply seizing the remainder of Donetsk and Luhansk....
EDIT- I will say, as a tank fan, I am at least happy that the T-62s and so on won't be rotting away in a warehouse...
Edited by FFShinra on Sep 3rd 2018 at 8:46:47 AM
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Optimism from my part... But true that Ukraine hasn’t made much progress in getting in back aside from some token moves.
"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"