War in Ukraine

Except when we want to point and laugh.

That was spectacular.

The Independent and the Guardian especially get flack from everyone for not toeing the line on their propaganda, left or right. Aljazeera as well, but they have issues of their own, but less than CNN, Fox, Sun, or RT. As far as I've seen, the Independent and the Guardian try to be as direct about what's going on as possible. If they appear to be quite left-leaning, perhaps that just goes to show how right-leaning much of the media and major governments we tend to discuss here actually are.

Like Spidew-Man!

edited 29th Jul '14 2:59:47 PM by Cyran

Don't worry about me, I'm fully aware of my primary news source's reputation as the local delegate of the globalist left-liberal Jewish NWO conspiracy.

For the record, I usually am okay with major media outfits (so long as I don't stick to just one). It's just this conflict in particular tends to get the media to fall back on Cold War tropes more than actual journalism.

Half the Guardian editing board would probably have been jailed as Communist sympathisers during the Cold War, so if anything the worry with them should be going pro-Russia on the basis that everything the US does is bad because "OMG American Imperialism!".

Remember, this is the paper that's working with Snowden, pro-western bias is not something you have to worry about.

Regarding that Guardian article, while there are some things written there that should be taken with a grain of salt, the important to thing to retain is: Igor Bezler is one of the commanders/captains/leaders/whatever whose hot-bloodedness might be both his greatest asset and his greatest flaw. Due to the increasing discontent on all sides with their behaviour, the rebels are increasing their siege mentality, and tend to consider almost every media agent as an 'enemy', which transmits fear of a backlash by other people, IMO (in terms of those people being from the rebel government or from the Kremlin, that's up to you - my mind is neutral in this particular matter).

Now, the Guardian does have to show some bias today, in order to not be further undermined by the government/elite, especially after the Snowden debacle, which led to threats and the consequent destruction of computers and hard drives. However, in spite of all that, I still tend to believe the Guardian is one of the few almost-honest newspapers/news websites out there, because it doesn't tend to attack Russia a lot, particularly when compared to many other news channels and newspapers in the UK and the US.

edited 29th Jul '14 3:22:55 PM by Quag15

Hot-blooded commanders, eh? Strelok himself, Motorola, Mozgovoy. Boroday, meanwhile, appeared to the meeting with the Malaysian negotiators with a cigar in mouth and a pistol at his hip.

In other news, the DPR is close to being cut off from LPR, the Ukrainian army is steadily clearing out cities and have entered Avdiyivka, a suburb of Donetsk.

In other news, Strelok has just given his weirdest interview ever (there should be an article somewhere on Buzzfeed). The highlight includes him alleging that his fighters have killed Ukrainian troops of "negroid origin".

In other news, the US said that they have "irrefutable proof" that the rebels did it. Seeing as they had claimed that before and offered links from social sites as "proof", don't hold your breath.

Still don't have the possibility to do a full post with links, sorry

Then the whole movement is filled with the siege mentality and are negotiating in a way that is designed to intimidate. However, it seems obvious that they are losing morale and cold rationality, which will not endear them to any international negotiators (the Malaysian guys will talk about how they were received/treated, and it will spread in many circles). Regardless of what people may think of the book, they oughta have read The Prince in order to learn how to handle things pragmatically.

When you get back to posting links, Emuran, if you can link us to a map showing the updated situation, we'd be grateful.

Lack of morale and cold rationality + plain old racism and delusions = Loss of control over the situation in the long term.

edited 29th Jul '14 6:47:37 PM by Quag15

That Strelok statement is approaching No Kor levels...lol

I presume LPR is Luhansk and DPR is Donetsk. They are the two "Donbass" regions. The former is north-east of the latter.

I know, but I would like to see the current lines and other marks of conflict, disputed territory and so forth, since the pro-government troops are already getting inside those republics and are gaining some territory within it.

Tokyo made new sanctions against Russia, mostly financial against individuals known to be involved with Crimea and in eastern Ukraine.

I would think that there is more than just plain racism here. Thing is, there are very few black people both in Russia and Ukraine. So few that the average person won't see them every day, or every week, or even every month. And when an average person encounters a black person, they would assume that the black person is a foreigner. So saying that he killed black people (multiple!) serving in Ukraine army he is pretty much saying that USA obviously backing them up because there is no way they would have been natives. Whether he actually saw any, of course, is the question - he does sound more than a little delusional.

edited 29th Jul '14 7:13:30 PM by Beholderess

Understandable. Still, while there are few people visibly black in Russia and Ukraine, many Russians and Ukrainians can see various black and mixed-race football players, particularly from Brazil and some African countries, so, maybe their attitudes oughta be starting to change.

edited 29th Jul '14 7:20:52 PM by Quag15

Of course they are aware of black football players, but those are still foreigners, which is the point I've been trying to make.

That is to say, if there actually were multiple black people for him to shoot in the first place, then it would point out towards Ukraine forces being supplemented from abroad. Which is what he might have been trying to say - not as much "I shot those (censored) black guys" (although there might be that, too) but more "I shot some damn Americans".

Though, again, I doubt that that guy actually saw any in the first place.

edited 29th Jul '14 7:40:32 PM by Beholderess

Quag, you asked for a map of the current conflict? Here you go.◊ (In Ukrainian, but you can still get a sense of the positions.)

These are updated every day — you can normally find them here in English, but they don't seem to have the most recent few days. Or you can get them in Ukrainian here.

edited 29th Jul '14 7:59:17 PM by BokhuraBurnes

While that map is not made by someone neutral, nonetheless, it's a start. Thanks.

If Donetsk, Lysychansk, Sloviansk and Sverdlosk become no longer controlled by the rebels, then the tides will be turned definitely against them and it'll be a matter of, in my prediction, 1 year, till they have to surrender/capitulate.

edited 29th Jul '14 8:01:46 PM by Quag15

A year? That's generous. I give it to December.

People here have yet to mention German news sources, which almost completely lack right-wing alignments for the sake of political correctness, and as of now still have beef against the U.S for its controversial intelligence operations within Germany. They seem pretty even handed to me, and they don't seem to flame Russia as much due to historical PC issues.

There's a possibility that the "negroid" and presumably dark skinned troops are in fact Turkic ethnic mercenaries from the nearby Balkans. Considering that the Loyalists are on their last legs when it comes to motivated manpower, I wouldn't be surprised if they resorted to recruiting foreigners.

edited 29th Jul '14 8:04:49 PM by FluffyMcChicken

I tought of that as well, but something tells me they could engage Stalingrad-style in some of their cities and towns towards the pro-government forces, which would lead to an impasse which could last from November to January.

I can reduce my prediction, nonetheless. Perhaps they'll surrender/capitulate by January.

edited 29th Jul '14 8:07:59 PM by Quag15

Moscow no like Tokyo's sanctions.

Considering the utmost ferocity that they're resisting the military power of the Loyalists, I doubt that the Rebels would have the stomach for surrendering after having fought so hard. Being a coalition of loosely organized militia bands, the Rebels most likely don't have a stable and centralized chain of command; the way I see it is that, should the Loyalists prevail, half of the Rebels would dig in and be destroyed in futile final stand battles while the others would flee into exile in Russia.

edited 29th Jul '14 8:10:47 PM by FluffyMcChicken

I know I've seen one or two brought up on the forums every now and again, but I admit that I'm not terribly familiar with the German journalism community.

That is also a good possibility. Considering how some of the leaders are now delusional and acting irrationally, they might lead their regiments/groups towards an ultimate, pointless death, with a few of them deserting and crossing the border.

edited 29th Jul '14 8:16:00 PM by Quag15

Doveryai no proveryai; did we ever get a source on those claims of separatists being shot on the border?

What's sad is that a defeat of the rebels will most likely be temporary. Kiev will screw up fixing the issues that got the east to revolt in the first place, and it'll be the same all over again.