Everybody's dead, Dave.
Why this the Obama Administration so obsessed with the TPP and TTIP? So obsessed that Obama dropped it into a speech about why the UK should stay in the EU of all things.
Obama wants to have a big trade deal as a part of his legacy, I think - he wants to have a NAFTA to his name, and is totally unaware of the problems with NAFTA. That's my best guess.
Seriously, it makes no sense. Obama's net-savvy enough to know why he's getting so much pushback from all sides over this, but he seems determined to plow through all objections. I suppose I could always blame the Beltway reality-distortion field.
I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
More power to the US to combat China in trade while simultaneously stunting their European, Asian, South American and Oceanian allies' growth by making them reliant on the US rather than on their own domestic industries.
edited 4th May '16 1:08:45 AM by Bat178
He's aiming at making that his legacy. But the 2016 presidential election and associated legislative elections have brought up overwhelming opposition from all sides.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
The Potato's Choice
The other thing is Obama is a member of the post Reagan New Democrat/Neo Liberal Democrat line of thinking, where trade can never be a bad thing. Trade is always good. More Trade makes every happier and healthier and safer. And that you just have to accept losing jobs to them being moved overseas as a side effect.
And Obama's convinced though he's also added a ton of provisions to prevent further erosion of the middle class, and instead reverse the erosion via the TPP and TIPP.
Basically, he can't grasp why people would be opposed to it when it furthers American Hard and Soft Power, and makes goods cheaper in the U.S. potentially and by lowering barriers with other countries, you can do more business with like-minded businesses in countries that might of been too hard to get into.
Like Vietnam.
Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big mistake in coming down from the trees in the first place. - Douglas Adams
Even though both Japan and South Korea hate China's guts and probably wouldn't do business with them anyways...
Chaotic Greedy
Whereas for the opponents, these treaties are selling out all signatory countries, including the USA, to American corporations.
"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Which is true, since TTIP allows American corporations to create and dictate any new public health and safety regulations for European countries, and if a European country tries to make laws to raise social or environmental standards, then the TTIP allows American companies to sue for loss of profits.
edited 4th May '16 1:46:11 AM by Bat178
The Potato's Choice
Even though both Japan and South Korea hate China's guts and probably wouldn't do business with them anyways...
All 3 are really Tsundere about their trading, especially Korea and Japan.
For example 80-90% of Japanese anime is actually animated in South Korea however South Korea has actively banned shows that include any Japanese imagery including animes animated in their own country.
If TPP had been just those six or so pages of trade deals and not all the lame duck bills that they tacked on, it would have more than likely had a chance.
But nope. Let's attach SOPA to it. Let's also attach other random bills to it and completely miss the point of why we're making TPP in the first place. If we couldn't push it through yesterday, we'll push it through tomorrow!
Raven Wilder
Sued in what court, though? 'Cause I can't see any country's own court system siding against the government in a case like that.
"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
These claims are not settled by the regular court system, there are special arbitration courts for ISDS, which are a lot less transparent and more prone to manipulation.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
The Potato's Choice
To which one begs:
"Who are the ones that make sure these rulings by these secret tribunals are actually enforced by the represented nations?"
Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big mistake in coming down from the trees in the first place. - Douglas Adams
The fact that litigation costs as does financial uncertainty if someone doesn't pay the fines. As well as diplomatic drama. This paper has a bit more to say on pages 30 and forward
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edited 5th May '16 10:59:31 PM by SeptimusHeap
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
V
Cameron accepts TTIP amendment to mollify rebel Tory MPs
The prime minister has been forced to accept a critical amendment about the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) after it was signed by 25 Tory backbenchers, and backed by Labour, SNP and Green MPs.
The politicians, led by the Conservative former cabinet minister Peter Lilley, expressed regret that the government did not include a bill in the Queen’s speech that would protect the NHS from the deal.
A No 10 spokesman said: “As we’ve said all along, there is no threat to the NHS from TTIP. So if this amendment is selected, we’ll accept it.”
But members of the official campaign to leave the EU, Vote Leave, said they were not reassured by the statement. Steve Baker, one of the signatories on the amendment and a leading figure for Brexit, said that by accepting the amendment the government was conceding that the trade deal did represent a risk for Britain’s health service.
“The government has today admitted that the EU is a threat to our NHS,” he said. “The only way we can protect the NHS from TTIP is if we vote to leave on 23 June.”
Yes, the EU Referendum is everywhere. It's also notable that those that support Brexit are also anti-TTIP.
Jeremy Corbyn, speaking at the launch of an event about workers’ rights in Stroud, said he would be happy to vote with pro-Brexit Tories. “Yes we will be backing that,” he said.
“I would personally go much further because my concerns about TTIP are not just about the effect on public services but also the principle of investor protection that goes within TTIP – planned rules which would in effect almost enfranchise global corporations at the expense of national governments. This protection of the NHS is an important step but it’s not the whole step.”
The amendment was being tabled jointly by Lilley and Labour backbencher Paula Sherriff, who was involved in the “tampon tax” campaign to force George Osborne to cut VAT on sanitary products. It expresses regret that there was no bill to protect the NHS from TTIP, a trade deal being hammered out between the EU and US.
Lilley said: “I support free trade. But TTIP introduces special courts, which are not necessary for free trade, will give American multinationals the right to sue our government (but not vice versa) and could put our NHS at risk. I cannot understand why the government has not tried to exclude the NHS.”
Sherriff described it as “another humiliating climbdown” by Downing Street. “They will now be the first government in history to official ‘regret’ their own programme within days of announcing it, just months after doing the same on their budget,” she said.
Nick Dearden, director of campaign group Global Justice Now, said: “The fact that the government is facing a backbench rebellion on the Queen’s speech over the issue of TTIP is testament to just how toxic an issue this trade deal has become. In the space of a couple of years, TTIP has gone from an obscure acronym to a massively controversial issue.”
edited 19th May '16 11:33:33 PM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On
@PotatosRock: I think it's pretty obvious whose expected to be enforcing these rulings, and they have both the largest military in the world and more than enough economic power to cripple non-compliant economies with sanctions and the like if it comes to that.
I question that rulings would be enforced in that manner. It'd result in far more blow-back and diplomatic issues - as well as economic ones - than the US is willing to afford.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
China has the largest military, not the US (The US has the current strongest military, but not the largest one. Even then, that's only the regular army. The UK has the strongest special forces). Also, the UK and France have nukes, so the US wouldn't be stupid enough to try to force them into this with their military and/or economic sanctions even if they wanted to.
edited 6th Jun '16 12:03:33 PM by Bat178
V
So has France, and India, and Pakistan — and there are plenty of others that could easily get Nuclear Weapons if they had to (Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia)...
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edited 6th Jun '16 11:37:37 AM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On
If the signator countries refuse to comply with the rulings of the courts (assuming the deal gets passed of course), you can bet the US is going to be putting pressure on them. The worst that will happen is that the offender gets booted out of the "trade sphere" if they continually refuse to comply. It almost certainly won't reach the point of punitive sanctions, much less an actual trade war, but the dominance of the American economy and military is something that is always taken into consideration in these kinds of negotiations, which was one of he big purposes of the EU: pooling the continent's power to enable European nations to negotiate with the US on more equal grounds than would be capable of as individual nations. Which makes Brexit all the more unfortunate for the UK; if they want to oppose the TPIP, they'll have a better chance doing it as part of the EU than alone.
edited 24th Jun '16 8:15:47 AM by CaptainCapsase
Everybody's dead, Dave.
There are still numerous people, even users of this very website, who still think TPPA is a "duuur harmless trade deal". Ugh, that's so infuriating. How ignorant can you be that you look up the most famously hostile legislation of the last two decades and then glance at the opening of a Wikipedia article before coming to a verdict? I think overall people are still way too dependent on Wikipedia for getting information, that being the freely editable website that isn't focused on concretely understood fiction, and never speaks up about it when there's something really alarming inside the truth. I got news for those people, Wikipedia contains infinite false knowledge feedback loops
◊.
edited 24th Jun '16 5:21:59 PM by Pyrarson
H.B. Ward
Nothing new, of course. It's Cold War-era stuff.
edited 2nd May '16 2:17:18 AM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On