Avoiding Stereotypical Fantasy Counterpart Cultures

So my work happens to be Fantasy and set in the past (although it's much closer to Clock Punk than 'ambiguously Medieval Europe' Steampunk)and I wanted to avoid the long standing tradition of setting it in 'Ambiguously England' where apparently only white people live So I plan on having some characters be of non-white races

• The only thing is 1. This takes place in a constructed setting, so saying someone is 'Asian' or 'Black' wouldn't make very much sense at all.
• Also, I'm worried about making the Fantasy Counterpoint Culture s either A. stereotypical or B. uncreative.
  • For the first problem, should I just describe them as Ambiguously Brown or something? (such as saying "___ had dark skin, etc.) And also appreciate some help with the other problem. Thanks.

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edited 2nd Sep '14 5:33:30 PM by RedEyesNegroDragon

Regarding the second problem, you could pick cultures that are not well-represented in fiction and/or that you can't think of common stereotypes for, then immerse yourself in research.

The Carthaginian or Maratha empires, perhaps?

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

Remember that you can mix cultures, too.

This is actually a pretty good idea — some of my best ideas came from the Iroquois, for instance.

Also, if done well, intentional Culture Chop Suey (as mentioned by , who ninja'd me) can be a great tool, just so long as you think things through. Smoothing out the areas where your chosen cultures intersect can be tricky, but will also help with truly original ideas.

One thing not to do, in my opinion, is try to come up with a "truly original" culture that attempts to take nothing from any real-world culture. In my experience, that usually just leads to a culture that feels like the author's own culture and/or their vision for what a culture should be, just with a few quirks and a new coat of paint.

edited 7th Nov '13 4:13:18 PM by KillerClowns

Have you read the first Earthsea novel, by Le Guin? If not, do so. It's a quick read, and very good in general. And for many it's kinda wham'ish when they find out that the protagonist isn't white.

A good strategy for Culture Chop Suey is to pick two different peoples as an inspiration and take the best aspects of both- a fictional great power of mine is a combination of the Mongols/ your stereotypical nomadic horsemen and the Swedish Empire. This is useful if you don't want people to change a few names and get medieval Europe. *coughcough Ranger's Apprentice series cough cough*

"Suddenly, as he was listening, the ceiling fell in on his head."

Thank you. :P :)

The idea of blending disparate cultures is a good one, too - now that Clowns and Kesar have mentioned it, I realised I've used that too (Perinthia combines classical Greece and post-revolutionary France, and Tannein was a sort of hybrid of Vedic India and the Novgorod Republic).

I'm not sure I have any good advice on what Clowns said about how to smooth over the differences between your inspirations because I haven't really thought about the process before. I guess I suggest start with looking for particular ways in which they are similar (socially, historically, geographically) and using that as the foundation to incorporate other elements you find interesting onto - e.g. with Perinthia, France and Greece were both centers of philosophy, the arts, and high culture, known for decadence, subject to intensely factional political turmoil, with many prominent individuals with diverging ideas of leadership.

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

Try to imagine the strangest things you've ever thought about, and slowly combine them into something that can be considered culture. Along with some of your own ideas, of course.

A lot of medieval Central and Eastern Europe was conquered by the Turks, which I think is how Albania and Bosnia got such large Muslim populations. Furthermore, Tartars (Asians) have formed minority populations there since the middle ages, although I think Stalin may have ended up uprooting them and moving them somewhere. A fantasy counterpart culture based off this would need non-white people in it to be 'accurate'.

I second research.

Also, note that culture does not necessarily denote skin color.

Even in countries traditionally portrayed as white, and before the modern area of accessible global transportation, there were people of color born and raised there for a very long time. The Mediterranean is a very small body of water structured in a way that puts less than a hundred miles between Spain, Italy, and Greece in particular.

So any culture is bound to have some level of diversity. Which skintone is more prevalent depends on distance (accessible transportation is generally based on wealth, or occupation like military), and tolerance of intermingling (especially with political tension).

edited 13th Nov '13 6:36:44 PM by Leradny

Interesting you should mention that. According to genetic studies, the Y-chromosomes of part of the Greek and Balkan populations are actually much more similar to those of Africans than other Europeans.

edited 13th Nov '13 4:34:04 PM by shiro_okami

I'm gonna piggyback on this thread to ask, if you have a Constructed World with characters of Asian ethnicity, would it be all right to refer to them as "asian" with a lower-case "a", to convey to the reader that they're supposed to be Asian, but not that Asia actually exists in this setting? Or would that just be confusing?

If I just saw that in a piece of writing, I'd probably assume the author didn't think it through, and that also the lower-case letter was an odd or stylistic grammar mistake. I'd be able to picture features associated with Asians (well, for me it's East Asians, I think others might automatically go for South Asians?) but think you made an error in how you conveyed it.

edited 17th Nov '13 2:51:22 PM by greedling

You will not go to space today.

I'd personally describe the skintone and facial features rather than using shorthand, if you have a constructed world.

What Terry Pratchett did is basically just describe the Middle East and Middle Easterners, and use the words "Klatch" and "Klatchians" to refer to that. I think that's the best way to do it. It doesn't make sense to say "Asian" or "asian" if there's no Asia.

I know that I could use words like "dark skin" or "spiraling hair" to describe a character who is of (the equivalent of) African/Black descent. But I've had trouble figuring out how to describe a person who is intened to be of "Asian" descent. Stuff like "almond shaped eyes" is pretty damn cliche (and a bit offensive)

Look at actors of Asian descent. Describe them without using the word Asian as practice.

Black hair + dark eyes always invokes an Asian-like appearance for me, at least without further details. That's probably a side-effect of the people surrounding me, though. Is it different for the rest of you?

You will not go to space today.

Anne Hathaway fits the description of black hair and dark eyes, yet she is clearly not Asian. Describing an ethnicity with sensitivity requires learning details.

There are two widely recognized hair textures particular to Asia:

• One is a type of thick, coarse hair which ranges from mostly straight to nearly frizzy, but it is generally wavy. It is so naturally dull that it looks dry even when healthy.
• The other is extremely shiny, supple, straight, and on the thin side.
• It does not have to be dark. There are naturally brown-haired Asian people. In Northwestern China, there are several subcultures who have natural red hair.

Skintone:

• The stereotypical white, flawless complexion, generally said to be warmer, or yellow-based if there is any hint of color. This is not actually a common natural skintone, only extremely focused on in the media.
• A noticeable, golden tan medium brown color.
• A very grayish, dusky, dark tone which may almost be mistaken for African.

Eyebrows: They tend to be straight-ish, blocky eyebrows with sparse hair. It makes eyes look slightly less prominent, without makeup.

Cheekbones: Not generally prominent, they are usually rounded if they are visible.

Noses: In general, Asian people tend to have curved noses with slightly narrow bridges, which makes their eyes look as if they're spaced farther apart.

Mouths: They tend to be smallish, with full lips. It is not uncommon for men to have the same look, though the top lip is often much thinner, and lack of makeup also makes men's mouths less prominent. It is also fairly common for both men and women to have a rounded chin and jaw.

edited 19th Nov '13 10:27:40 PM by Leradny

I thought Anne Hathaway's hair was brown? Although I don't follow her so I guess it could be dyed or whatever. And looking closer at pictures... I was really thinking of near-black eyes, while various pictures seem to show she has the lighter brown shade that I associate with white people. I suppose dark includes browns in general when it comes to eye colour, eh...

I know not all people with black hair + "black" eyes are Asian, obviously, that's why I mentioned further details can change my mind (although I was thinking more of other minority groups). But as a Chinese person surrounded by the same, that description automatically brings up Asian (specifically Han Chinese), more reliably than anything else. So I'm mostly interested in knowing what other people automatically picture if a book describes a person with black hair and dark/"black" eyes.

You will not go to space today.

See, you default to Asian because of your surroundings. If someone in another area heard "dark hair and eyes" they could think of Greek or Irish or Russian or literally anything else, which is why people need more specific details.

edited 20th Nov '13 9:15:28 AM by leradny

I was thinking about using the whole 'Epicanthic fold' thing, but I don't know how to say that without it sounding A. Forced and awkward or B. Offensive if I try to say something like "slanted eyes"

edited 20th Nov '13 9:42:15 AM by TheMuse

Uh, yeah, I'm aware people surrounded by a different community would have different expectations, that's why I asked in the first place. Normally I'd assume "most people think of white people" but I don't really see a lot of actual black hair on white people in live action stuff and I figured the media's how most people come to that sort of consensus default. I was hoping for specific examples from people rather than a theoretical "maybe some people see this" though, to see if there's anything "normal". I suppose that's not really important compared to this next paragraph—

If I described hair and eyes as "black" and not "dark" is it still the same? You mentioned Anne Hathaway when I brought up black hair, so is it normal for people to think "dark brown" when I say black? Darkness is relative, whatever, so I can accept the thing with the eyes, but black is an actual colour and actually appears on hair. It would've never occurred to me that people would imagine something else instead.

You will not go to space today.

Well I've seen numerous (a lot explicitly white) characters being described as having 'black hair' or even 'jet black hair'

• (although I've heard that only Asian people are capable of having truly 'black' hair, but very few people would know that)

I, personally happen to have VERY dark brown eyes which some people have mistaken as black and I'm of Italian and French descent

• A black haired person, by themselves, probably wouldn't evoke 'Asian' to most people. Raven Hair, Ivory Skin happens to be ingrained in a majority of society psyche and there aren't very many notable Asian or even 'non-white' examples.