God's Not Dead

A helpful tip(?) for atheists who often find themselves arguing with Christians.

Three words: Problem of Evil.

Seriously, that's like an instant "You Win" button against Christians.

I'm a Christian myself, by the way.

Eh, there are many ways to counter the problem of evil, that's all I'll say.

I don't think I've seen any good argument that doesn't rely on faith.

You're looking for a more satisfying answer, I suppose.

Although I'd disagree with you on the matter of certain arguments merely relying on faith, this is not the appropriate thread to discuss this complex subject, so I won't go any further.

edited 30th Jan '16 8:25:59 PM by Quag15

"Christianity has been in power for so long (in America anyway) that any loss of power is perceived as persecution"

Is more a thing of christian values having issues: we have to remenber christian trive in part for the willingness to share the creed with people and their idea they are correct, this let to the typical flaw christianity(and islam) have: they are not willing to hear dissent or being held as wrong.

this is way they frame the issue of gays as "taking away their religious liberties" because their faith bans gay and at the same time impulse to make public their faith everytime(which is why many in the state find represive the idea of religion being a private matter)

Western culture is in a weird in-between place that's just enough of a compromise between Christianity, multi-culturalism, and atheism to leave every side unhappy.

The only way to stay happy is to never interact with other people ever.

Of course, that solution has its own set of problems.

Best use of religious allegory in film, that also happens to be set in a prison environment (like Shawshank Redemption) is in the Paul Newman classic, "Cool Hand Luke". Which came first and was better imho. There's quite a good, if acerbic as hell, summary of it in Rich Hall's documentary, "The Dirty South" if you can track that down too.

Personally, I thought Cool Hand Luke was a bit hamfisted with its images.

The problem of evil can work with Christians, but not with Jews: In the Old testament, God isn't the supreme force of good, but the supreme force of everything. So he is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, but not Omnibenevolant. Hence why he doesn't give a damn when millions of egyptians die at once with the plagues.

And even then, some would say: "Well, God works in mysterious ways". But let's not dive into religion.

Is the Problem of Evil a rock group or something like this:

http://blog.gaiam.com/quotes/authors/epicurus/61935 ?

Even as I lean toward atheism/pantheism, I wouldn't say the Problem of Evil is that problematic when two things are taken into consideration. For one, salvation applies only for the afterlife, meaning there's no promised guarantee a Christian's life will turn out better than anyone else's. Second, when you compare Genesis, the Book of Job, and the Temptation of Christ, there's the persistent theme of Satan (assuming the Snake also represents him) tempting people, but the Book of Job actually provides very important context to the whole deal - that is, Satan is actually running a Secret Test of Character under God's explicit approval. Meaning, there is no evil, it's all a test. Even the devil himself is little more than an overeager prosecutor running sting operations. Moreover, taking into account the existence of purgatory, the test may continue even after death, so that people regretting what they felt they had to do in life may yet reach salvation.

As it predates Christianity by centuries, the Problem of Evil criticizes the idea of generic good gods supposed to look after people in their lifetime - as most cultures of the time claim them to do; meanwhile, the ancient Greek afterlife wasn't exactly a happy place for the general public. However, under strict interpretation of Christian doctrine, it doesn't really apply to Christianity.

God's Not Dead: He's Just Drawn That Way.

Honestly, without evil, how would you define good? Evil is, in some ways, necessary to make what good we do stand out and shine brighter.

Personally, I think that all we need is the knowledge of the concept of evil to recognize the value of good. If an omniscient and omnibenevolent god existed, I imagine they would be able to explain the concept of evil so that their creations can appreciate the good that exists.

I consider myself agnostic, but I do believe that both theism and atheism should be protected in a free society. For me, what God's Not Dead and its sequel get wrong (other than treating Christians as being persecuted in modern-day society) is the assumption that only Christianity needs to be protected.

While the film had good intentions, it was executed atrociously. Especially Rattison's death scene.

edited 23rd Feb '16 10:04:58 AM by Philcoulson

Making this sequel destroys what little credibility the producers had after the first one. The films intention was to spread the word not whore itself out for cash

No, the film was made to be complete pro-Christian propaganda about how atheists are evil and Christianity is the one true way. It was pure bullshit.

It's not even good pro-Christian propaganda (and even it the movie wasn't propaganda, it would still be very shitty, from what I've heard), and it's basically more of a movie rooted in American Christianity than in Christianity's message and values on the face of actual adversity around the world.

Why can't people learn from movies such as The Mission, which does a much better job of spreading the word (since it's, you know, about Jesuit missionaries)?

edited 23rd Feb '16 4:30:13 PM by Quag15

I'd suggest taking a page from Veggietales. It told good morals without sounding preachy and had a lot of great humor to it that would've gone over most kids' heads.

edited 23rd Feb '16 4:43:11 PM by AdricDePsycho

I feel like a good faith film is one that doesn't push to one side over the other to tell its story.

I always liked Prince of Egypt because I could appreciate it as a story and my acceptance or rejection of theism did not connect to how much I could enjoy the movie. It was a Bible story, but it never felt preachy and I could accept God as an aspect of the story telling rather than some overt message, if that makes sense?

Like, you can have 'Faith' as a theme without 'This Faith is the one and always true no matter what' concept.

On the whole, I hate Faith Films for lack of quality, groan when I see them being made, and think they shouldn't be made until such people understand the concept of quality. At the same time, I shouldn't be a hyprocite and groan every time I see one because its not fair to say someone shouldn't try unless they can because you try and learn from your mistakes, right?

There is a reason why Christian films based on Bible times are more critically acclaimed than Christian films based on contemporary times: because Monotheists were actually oppressed during those times, so the message is more meaningful. Nowadays it's riskier to say you're an Atheist than saying you're a Christians. The reason Spotlight is so beloved is because it's about challenging the corruption of an institution many would feel immoral to go against. Unlike all these Christian films that feel safe when making these films, the film is all about taking chances.

Indeed. Modern Christianity films also make the mistake of coming off as extremely preachy and self-righteous when there are Bible stories that speak against thinking of yourself as better than others.

I dinnae know. Mentioning "The Mission" in this thread sullies a really good film, with excellent performances throughout, a haunting musical score by Vangelis, and peerless direction that ensured egos like De Niro, Irons and Mc Anally didn't dominate the film by themselves but shared the limelight.

Well, the message is still meaningful, even if a movie doesn't deal with oppresion. The message of Christianity can be applied to a multitude of situations that don't strictly require oppression.

That being said, outside the West, being the wrong type of monotheist can get you discriminated, killed or enslaved. Or even simply being a member of an Abrahamic religion, period (e.g. China).

I know, I know. It's just that it was the first movie that came to my mind. I agree with everything you said.

edited 24th Feb '16 7:58:16 AM by Quag15

Yeah. I mean, the problem with making these types of Christian movies is that the they seem to have been built in an echo-chamber. The only people who'd watch them are the people who don't need to hear their message. A notable exception, I think, would be the film To Save a Life, but that's because I think it's real message is directed at other Christians it considers to be intolerant hypocrites. Which, in hindsight, is actually a pretty clever way to send a message to a targeted group.

I'd argue the best ways to do a Christian movie are:

A) Adapt a biblical story.

B) Do a fantasy/sci-fi story with a lot of Christian themes ala Narnia or the Space Trilogy.

C) Make Christianity look cool. Which shouldn't be hard to do.