Post of the Week #3601

Posted by Applelight Limited on Thu, 24th Jan '13 8:03:56 PM - Post #332167 in the old thread

The Fandom Life Cycle needs to be cleaned up, as it's Trivia so shouldn't be arguable.

• My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic: You can make an argument for every stage from 4 on.
  • Stage 4 "large and organized," without a doubt. Sites like Equestria Daily and Fimfiction.net are still running strong, and fan artists are still making things left and right.
  • Stage 5 (sufficiently ingrained in contemporary culture for even the people not familiar with it to know a lot about it). The fanbase has been referenced on Saturday Night Live (not positively, mind you, but then no "nerdy" thing ever is), The Colbert Report, The Daily Show with Jon Stewart, and so on, and the general populace are aware that bronies exist. Andy Price, one of the comic artists, makes an argument that MLP is still in this stage in a "Fandom Files" podcast.
  • Stage 6: While 2012-2015 is largely considered to be the "golden age", with 2015 being the year in which convention attendance and fan activity was the highest, it is hard to deny that the fandom as a whole has changed. Whether that be for better or for worse remains to be seen, but there are arguments for a Stage 6 existence. Many would argue that the fandom started to decline while the show was still running, with many bronies during this period "losing the spark" and leaving the fandom. Soon, several conventions began closing their doors permanently (including flagship con BronyCon, closing in 2019), a sign that representation was dwindling. By the time the show actually ended in 2019, the Brony fandom was already a shell of its former self, with many remaining fans jumping ship to Generation 5 with the 2021 release of the movie My Little Pony: A New Generation (which led to a brief albeit notable resurgence in the fandom). While G4 continues to attract new fans, the Brony fandom as a whole currently has nowhere near the relevance that it had during its heyday.

To summarize it, I believe it stated Stage 4, quickly became 5, but now is 6. My questions are:

• Did it jump from 4 to 5 quickly enough to say it was just 5?
• Where did it transition from 5 to 6? 2015 as nothing past S4 (alicorn Twilight) made its way into pop culture unlike prior seasons? 2017 as the The Movie was the last big push for widespread appeal beyond fans and the divisiveness of season 8 and 9? Or after the series finale?
• Should G5 be part of 6 as what fans it brought in slowed but were not enough to reverse the cooldown? Or should be it listed separately as many treat it as a separate fandom/part of it? (Would G5 be Stage 1 or 2?)

Fun fact: Rainbow Dash smells like vanilla according to Pinkie Pie.

I'm not sure the coolness-loving Rainbow Dash would like being compared to the ice cream flavor that's considered "generic."

Agreed. In particular, I think that the main problem is that the example is trying to set itself in a vague eternal present instead of discussing, you know, the life cycle over the years.

• Stage 2 ("Fans begin to communicate and form clubs that will become the devoted core of the fandom.") I think was mostly happening in the Season 1 and pre-Season 2 era, so mostly in 2010 and 2011.
• Up to then, the fandom was mostly a secluded internet thing. It really grew into its "adult" size over Seasons 2 and 3, I think, which I would called a speedrun through Stages 3 ("Fandom heads towards mainstream.") and 4 ("Fandom becomes large and organized.")
• The period around Seasons 4 and 5 would likely be the "late golden age", but in particular the point when the fandom's public presence spiked — as said, 2015 being the year in which convention attendance and fan activity was the highest, and this general period was when commentary in broader cultural circles and media started to become an established thing. So I'd call this Stage 5 ("The work becomes sufficiently ingrained in contemporary culture for even people who never engage with it to know basic facts.")
• I would be inclined to say that Stage 6, the cooldown, began after Season 5 finished. I think that the really noticeable decline in numbers and activity started with Season 6 and just kept progressing smoothly until it bottomed out some time after the finale. I would say that it's still in this phase — activity is very low compared to really any pre-hiatus 2 period, but it seems to have stabilized at a low ebb for the most part. Public awareness took a while to catch on to the decrease, which is usually the case in these situations.

I would be inclined to call it part of the cooldown, at least insofar as most online fan communities usually include both it and G4 (or have two communities with mostly the same people exist in parallel, which I think is what's going on here in Tv Tropes, for instance.)

Edited by Theriocephalus on Apr 7th 2024 at 12:57:48 PM

Funny thing is, vanilla isn't generic at all. There are many, many varieties of vanilla flavors, and its reputation as boring is rather undeserved.

I think that the main problem is that the example is trying to set itself in a vague eternal present

This is one of the things that bugs me all the time about wiki articles. There are so many articles written many years ago talking about the then-present in the present tense, or even worse yet, talk about future events in the future tense.

I mean obviously articles are going to go out of date eventually, noone's perfect etc. But what bugs me is the myopia of the article writers, as if they think that the present will never change and time is frozen when they hit submit.

Aren't we supposed to write them like that, though?

So, how is Rainbow Dash able to bake two tasty cakes in 28 Pranks Later, but make a terrible pie in Secrets and Pies?

Rule of Funny

Character decay.

Or rather, the writers of the latter episode just didn't care about the continuity snarl.

Edited by Redmess on Apr 10th 2024 at 9:07:06 PM

Edit: I can think of two in-universe explanations. One is that she's better at baking cakes because she likes them more. Another is that I looked up about that episode and the scene where she eats the gross pie is meant to be an apology, so there's likely a degree of self-punishment involved where she deliberately made it as inedible and disgusting as possible even for someone who already hates pies. It's possibly meant as a pun on the idea of "eating humble pie" as well.

Edited by Rainbow on Apr 10th 2024 at 4:08:56 AM

When talking about something internal to a work, yes, because that is talking about a set fictional event.

When talking about real-life events, as is the case for Trivia and YMMV articles... not really.

Looking at Examples Are Not Recent, these are all example examples of how not to write things:

Because they all get outdated quickly.

Anyway, back on topic. If nobody else wants to do it, I'll rewrite the fandom life cycle thing tomorrow morning.

Fandom Life Cycle based on my experience.

• Stage 2 by the end of Season One.
• Blitzed through Stage 3 and hit Stage 4 in the Season 1-2 Hiatus.
• Fandom meme-ry peaked in Seasons 2-3.
• Began to be commonly recognized by mainstream media in about 2013, so Stage 5.
• Fandom activity peaked in Seasons 4 and 5.
• Fandom stayed large, organized, and active through the end of the show, but tapered off.
• Fandom remained active after show ended, but activity declined sharply from mainstream popularity to "merely" high activity. The fandom is still large and organized and its main centers of activity (derpibooru, EQD, Fimfiction, r/mylittlepony, etc.) are all still hella active.
• Gen 5 movie caused a slight newbie boom, but nothing permanent.
• Fandom remains stable, large, organized, and active as Gen 5 progresses, though interest remains primarily in Gen 4. Previous centers of activity remain highly active in comparison to other fandoms of finished works, albeit nowhere near what it was at the peak.

I'll also say, I'm the one who wrote the Fandom Life Cycle entry as it is now, albeit I did it a while ago, and haven't updated it since I think 2021.

So, proposed rewrite:

• My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic:
  • Prior to the show, My Little Pony was, at best, a Stage 1 fandom of toy collectors and people who grew up on the older generations. The show garnered interest from the beginning due to its All-Star Cast (Lauren Faust running the show and Tara Strong voicing the lead protagonist being the standouts drawing interest).
  • As Season 1 released, the show quickly made it to Stage 2 as a niche internet fandom, originating on 4Chan's /co/ (cartoon) board, but due to their high activity being seen as obnoxious, the show attracts a large hatedom almost from the outset.
  • In the Season 1-2 Hiatus, popularity exploded, causing the show to blast through Stage 3 and reach Stage 4 in mere months before the new season even started.
  • As the fandom meme crowd peaked in Seasons 2 and 3, the show reached mainstream popularity and awareness in that stage and began to be referenced by other media such as The Colbert Report, Saturday Night Live, and so on.
  • Fan activity peaked in 2014-15, but remained strong through the end of the show, with the fandom tapering off into something of a mix between Stages 4-6 from 2019 to 2021.
  • The Generation 5 movie My Little Pony: A New Generation caused a resurgence in the fandom, though nowhere near what its levels were in the Generation 4 fandom's heyday. The fandom, as of 2024, sits somewhere around Stage 4, as it remains large and organized.

Edited by Rytex on Apr 11th 2024 at 1:16:04 PM

Just for fun, who do you all think is the one that's cried the most among the Mane 6/Rainbooms? Between Twilight, Rainbow Dash, Applejack, Pinkie Pie, Fluttershy, Rarity, Sunset Shimmer, and Sci-Twi, who do you all think is the most Prone to Tears among them?

@SpongeGuy11: In context she was making a deliberately horrible pie on purpose.

I like that but no other work have that many bullets or complexity, and it's about the franchise as a whole not just installments.

Also, no other examples have a shift to 6 mid Season, and while FIM's popularity peaked in 2015 it didn't change the cultural presence which is what this measures.

How's this to summarize?

• My Little Pony: It was as Stage 1 though Generation 1 through 3, the brand widely recognized but widely ridiculed keeping its fandom niche and obscure. The surprise quality and memetic popularity of Generation 4's My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic pushed it widespread acceptance and Stage 4, reaching Stage 5 after Season 2 becoming widely recognized and popular enough to get numerous appearances and mentions in mainstream culture, after its finale becoming 6a retaining its large and organized fandom despite slowly diminishing. The Sequel Series My Little Pony (Generation 5) was a brief Stage X, not enough to return to its Gen 4 heights but getting enough interest and new fans to restore the franchise as a whole to Stage 4.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Apr 11th 2024 at 7:04:28 AM

I like summarization when it makes wording more space-efficient. I do not like it when information is lost.

At a quick glance through, the Hannibal Lecter and Noddy's Toyland Adventures have seven bullet points to this proposal's six, and several entries with three, four or five bullet points are significantly longer in raw word count, by quite a lot in fact. This would be neither the longest or the most complex entry on the page.

I also do not understand your second point. Most of the multi-bullet entries describe distinct series and volumes separately. Noting what points of a work's release match with changes in the fandom seems like as good a context method as any.

That is also not correct; this does absolutely measure the internal activity of the fandom in addition to its popular perception. See the following entries in the description:

All of these talk primarily or exclusively about fandom activity and organization. It is not until stage five that public perception becomes a major element, since that is defined as the stage where significant non-fandom awareness of the fandom actually starts occurring.

A couple bullets could be merged together, but I don't see a lot to cut for the sake of cutting. I'd go with this, myself:

• My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic:
  • Prior to the show, My Little Pony was, at best, a Stage 1 fandom of toy collectors and people who grew up on the older generations. The show garnered interest from the beginning due to its All-Star Cast (Lauren Faust running the show and Tara Strong voicing the lead protagonist being the standouts drawing interest).
  • As Season 1 released, the show quickly made it to Stage 2 as a niche internet fandom, originating on 4Chan's /co/ (cartoon) board, but due to their high activity being seen as obnoxious, the show attracts a large hatedom almost from the outset. In the Season 1-2 Hiatus, popularity exploded, causing the show to blast through Stage 3 and reach Stage 4 in mere months before the new season even started.
  • As the fandom meme crowd peaked in Seasons 2 and 3, the show reached mainstream popularity and awareness in that stage and began to be referenced by both other media and news outlets. Fan activity peaked in 2014-15 and declined afterwards, eventually settling into something of a mix between Stages 4-6 from 2019 to 2021.
  • The Generation 5 movie My Little Pony: A New Generation caused a brief resurgence in the fandom, though nowhere near what its levels were in the Generation 4 fandom's heyday. The fandom, as of 2024, sits somewhere around Stage 4, as it remains large and organized, but has mostly faded from public attention.

Remember Stephen Magnet, the fan-named fabulous river serpent from ep2? I just got messaged by a guy named "Stéphane Magnenat". At first, I thought it was a fake name meant as an MLP reference, but as far as I can tell, that's actually his real name.

Those multiple bullet examples are for separate works/installments in the franchise. It would work if we're doing one for the whole franchise. Also the only time prerelease is allowed is for Stage 0, and no examples transition to 6 mid-series (SpongeBob SquarePants despite going though worse Seasonal Rot/decline in popularity remains/remained Stage 5). And no other examples factor in hatedom (so my proposed example was a mistake). And since every work grows to the highest Stage they reach no other examples list that unless a new work changes that.

So here's my impression of things (we can add the level of detail desired later).

• Gen 1, 2, and 3: Stage 1 with G2 maybe being 0, FIM bumping G1 and G3 to Stage 3.
• Gen 4: FIM started Stage 0 with the prerelease attention, proved so popular it climbed to Stage 5 by the end of season 2, 6a after ending due to how many have moved on since its 2015 peak.
• Gen 5: Stage 3 on its own, Stage 4 factoring in inertia from the G4 fandom.

Maybe the technicals about Fandom Life Cycle are questions for another thread?

Post of the Week #3602

Posted by Fell Deeds Awake on Mon, 28th Nov '11 4:51:55 AM - Post #45908 in the old thread

Anyone find it funny how despite being a Nice Girl in later seasons and being the Princess of Friendship, Twilight still doesn't like Trixie and is a Jerkass to One to her?

Probably. You have one in mind?

Not funny or strange, necessarily. They have pretty clashing personalities and a complicated personal history, so I think it's natural that they don't really get along.

I quite like that, actually. The show's later seasons, I think, were a little too overeager at times to present Twilight as essentially the "face" of friendship and niceness as concepts, which ended up losing out on a lot of her original character. Her feud with Trixie was one of a relatively few number of occasions where she was allowed to still be... well, someone other than the Princes of Friendship, really.

As far as the Fandom Life Cycle goes, it's probably worth mentioning that there are still dedicated conventions going on in multiple countries:

https://ponycon.info/

oh yeah,Friendship is magic is the kind of fandom that never really "dies"

Well, sure, but I don't think that is that strange. I'm still a fan of shows that ended years or decades ago, and I'm sure that is true for others too.