@CDRW: Those things still make me laugh more than they should.

And now I must sleep.

Oh god, the Totally Legit Recaps are hilarious.

I feel that your analysis is a bit of an overreaction, Wryte. It reminds me of when Mr. Enter said Starlight was only faking turning good. I mean, let me be clear here, I think Starlight's redemption was not done as good as it could've been, but I'm fine with the idea of her turning good. Nobody earns redemption. I would've preferred they had actual scenes of her trying to turn a new leaf instead of having another damn song, but as it stands, I'm actually happy with how she's redeemed herself and how she's progressed.

How exactly is redemption not something that's earned? The entire point of redemption is that you are earning back the trust and good will that you broke by acknowledging the root of your mistakes and making an effort to atone and/or change so that you won't repeat them. It's earned by reforming, and then demonstrating that reformation.

Sunset was a villain because she forced her will on others through bullying, magical compulsion, and force. She reformed when she realized that this was wrong, and began taking steps to correct it. She earned her redemption when she stood beside her friends as an equal coming from a place of penitence in order to save the school.

Darth Vader was a villain because he turned to the Dark Side for personal power and glory. His reformation came when he witnessed his son follow in his footsteps, but reject the Dark Side at the risk of his life. His redemption came when he sacrificed himself to destroy the Emperor, thereby eliminating the two most powerful masters of the Dark Side in the galaxy and saving Luke so he could rebuild the Jedi.

Zuko was a villain because he blindly allowed his pride and his father to steer him down a path of hatred and destruction. His reformation came when he realized that he had to decide for himself what was right, and chose to pursue a path of compassion and peace, redeeming himself when he joined the Avatar, helped end the war, and committed to using his new position as Fire Lord to make reparations for the damage his nation had caused.

Starlight was a villain because she used magic to force ponies to behave in a manner of her personal preference. She made the first steps toward reforming when she admitted that she was wrong about cutie marks, but it was left incomplete. She only recognized that she was going after the wrong target, not that magically forcing ponies to do what she wanted them to was wrong. Despite this, the show treated her as redeemed as soon as she stopped actively destroying the world, and later incidents of her reverting to her root villainous behavior were glossed over as inconsequential. Starlight also shirked her friendship lessons, the equivalent of her parole, routinely either putting them off to the last minute as she did with her assignment to make a new friend, or trying to avoid them entirely as she did with her assignment to reconnect with Starburst, calling her commitment to actually reforming into question. When called out on this, not only did she behave as if she were being treated unfairly, Twilight ultimately acquiesced and apologized despite being entirely in the right.

If the show treated Starlight as if she had not yet been redeemed, if it acknowledged that she was still going through the reformation process and had not yet arrived at redemption, that would be something entirely different, and probably even something I'd enjoy. But the show treats Starlight as if merely stopping her moronically self-destructive behavior in and of itself was an act of redemption, and as if any doubts about her behavior since then are unfounded and unfair to her, when they are completely justified and even incredibly lenient toward her. That's where the show loses me.

Now granted, I dropped the season less than halfway through, and it's entirely possible that Starlight's reformation showed more steady improvement after her first few episodes, but as a writer myself I stand by the notion that if you have lost your audience before you get to the good stuff, you have failed as a storyteller.

If I may be frank, the reason I think people are still upset about Starlight:

Because she's not Sunset.

There, I fuckin' said it.

Post of the Day #1710

I think the show is doing with Starlight what we entirely skipped with Sunset: the process of change. Sunset Shimmer pulled a 180 at the end of the first movie, and while the repercussions of her time as the bad guy followed her around for a while, she had a 100% good guy attitude from then on. Starlight, on the other hand, still retains some of the bad habits that made her a villain. But the result of her reformation wasn't that she's suddenly a good-two-shoes now, but that she's motivated to better herself.

Also, I have a different interpretation for why Starlight has been putting off her friendship lessons. Based on the way she reacts, it seems to me like she's running from them because of fear and apprehension. Now, whether or not you find that justifiable is up to you, but I'm personally inclined to be sympathetic about that sort of thing. Friendship is great and all, but making friends can be pretty darn stressful. (Also, I suspect Starlight has some proper form of social anxiety, but I'm not a doctor.)

Discord, though. I saw the video Kegi posted, and I can't say I disagree, Discord isn't even really trying. I think at this point, the main reason I'm a fan of Discord anymore is from his time as a proper villain.

edited 22nd Jan '17 6:46:08 AM by KylerThatch

I guess Discord's goal is to troll people as much as possible while remaining sufficiently nice that he doesn't get stoned again.

Anyway, Starlight definitely has a big fear of failure when it comes to friendship. People often procrastinate doing things they think they're bad at.

I'm like that funny drunk guy, not really much of an analyst like most people, I just like watching the cute horse show.

But if I do wanna go deeper for a sec, Starlight (and by extension Sunset and Trixie) feel pretty damn relateable to me, because I've done some pretty fucked up shit in the past and now I'm like almost a complete 180 from where I was half a decade ago and I try to help friends and family who still stuck in terrible loops like I used to be.

She absolutely has a form of social anxiety. Just look at how she almost has a panic attack in like...almost every episode she's in.

If I may add to this (surprisingly civil) Starlight discourse, I love how the series has actually shown her development some. She's developed and changed quite a bit and I love how it's happened. Yeah, she's gone through some rough points, but sometimes that shit just happens.

edited 22nd Jan '17 8:43:54 AM by AdricDePsycho

It's completely impossible to earn a redemption because you can never undo the past. Not even with time travel, because i's the reason for the time travel attempt. A redemption is given, not earned. And a character shows their redemption by no longer being the kind of person who would do the horrible things they did in the past. That applies to all three characters discussed (to various extents). In Discord's case, he's clearing a really low bar, but he's still clearing it.

Personally, I would say that it's forgiveness, not redemption, that can only be given.

@Kyler: The way I see it is that Starlight's main issue is that she really seems to have a fear of failure, so she defaults to her strongest skill (magic) whenever she's faced with a problem because she's afraid that she'll mess it up if she does it any other way. Ironically, that's exactly why she screws up: magic isn't a catch-all solution.

@Sereg: I was going to say what CDRW mentioned, but he beat me to it. That sounds way more like forgiveness, not redemption. That said, I wouldn't necessarily say that you can "earn" redemption, because redemption, in this contex, isn't a thing. It's a process. It's something you do. Starlight's redemption is the process of her recognizing the wrongness of her previous actions and making an effort to improve herself so as not to repeat those wrongs. It's true that she can't change the past, but fixing the past isn't exactly what redemption is, it's the process of becoming a better person. Attempting to right past wrongs might certainly be part of that process, but it's certainly not the entirety of it.

With Starlight, she's in the midst of that process. She's gotten down the recognition of how she screwed up, but she's having trouble with the "becoming a better person who won't repeat that issue." But she is working on it, and (Slowly) making progress.

Discord's problem is that he seems to have stalled after the "recognizing past wrongs" step. He realizes he was being a dick and isn't being overtly dickish, but he isn't really trying to change himself for the better in any sense other than "don't do things that would piss Fluttershy off."

edited 22nd Jan '17 9:39:14 AM by JapaneseTeeth

If I may be frank, the reason I think people are still upset about Starlight:

Because she's not Sunset.

It certainly doesn't help that Sunset did basically the exact same character arc better first, but my gripes are pretty squarely on how the show has treated Starlight as if she was instantly forgiven for all the crap she pulled, and anyone still having doubts about her is being unfair.

I think the show is doing with Starlight what we entirely skipped with Sunset: the process of change. Sunset Shimmer pulled a 180 at the end of the first movie, and while the repercussions of her time as the bad guy followed her around for a while, she had a 100% good guy attitude from then on. Starlight, on the other hand, still retains some of the bad habits that made her a villain. But the result of her reformation wasn't that she's suddenly a good-two-shoes now, but that she's motivated to better herself.

I find the notion that's she motivated to better herself debatable, as she's repeatedly shown that she's shirking the friendship lessons that are supposed to be her primary way of bettering herself. I agree that Sunset's reformation was too on a dime, and I think pretty much the entire fandom agreed on that point at the end of the first EQG movie. I've said it myself that I wish we'd gotten to see Sunset struggle a little more with giving up 3 years' worth of ingrained Alpha Bitch behavior, but I can let that slide since she still had to prove that reformation over the course of Rainbow Rocks before she earned the forgiveness and acceptance of her peers, friends, and herself.

The difference between Sunset and Starlight is that while Sunset reformed instantly and had to spend the entire next movie working toward redemption and forgiveness, Starlight was handed an instant redemption and has been spotty at best about reforming since. Reformation has to come before redemption, or the character hasn't actually done anything to deserve it. It's skipping to the end of the character's arc without actually going through the steps that make the resolution satisfying. It would be like if upon realizing that Luke was his son in New Hope, Vader blew up the Death Star himself and spent the rest of the trilogy hanging out with the Rebels still Force-choking people who displeased him. That's a recipe for a Robot Chicken sketch, not an actual plot.

Also, I have a different interpretation for why Starlight has been putting off her friendship lessons. Based on the way she reacts, it seems to me like she's running from them because of fear and apprehension. Now, whether or not you find that justifiable is up to you, but I'm personally inclined to be sympathetic about that sort of thing. Friendship is great and all, but making friends can be pretty darn stressful. (Also, I suspect Starlight has some proper form of social anxiety, but I'm not a doctor.)

The reasoning behind her shirking is irrelevant. Attending her friendship lessons is the bare minimum of demonstrating her commitment to reforming, and she's doing everything she can to avoid them. Being a case of social anxiety doesn't make it more forgivable in this case, it actually makes it even worse, because social anxiety was a contributing factor to her Start of Darkness, so falling back into it now is another red flag that she's not following through on her reformation.

But if I do wanna go deeper for a sec, Starlight (and by extension Sunset and Trixie) feel pretty damn relateable to me, because I've done some pretty fucked up shit in the past and now I'm like almost a complete 180 from where I was half a decade ago and I try to help friends and family who still stuck in terrible loops like I used to be.

I'm also speaking as someone with a pretty dark mark on their record, and that's probably the biggest reason Starlight ticks me off. I worked hard to change myself on a fundamental level so I wouldn't repeat the mistakes I made in the past, and here comes Starlight not even really trying, but she gets an instant pass from the show and the rest of the cast because she said she was sorry one time. I love a good redemption story, which is a fair part of why Sunset is my favorite character in the franchise. But the key word there is "good," and Starlight's isn't. Starlight's redemption is half-baked, poorly executed, and completely backwards.

With Starlight, she's in the midst of that process. She's gotten down the recognition of how she screwed up, but she's having trouble with the "becoming a better person who won't repeat that issue." But she is working on it, and (Slowly) making progress.

She hasn't even recognized how she screwed up, though. At least not from where I dropped the series. She recognized that she was going after an innocent target, but it wasn't picking the wrong target that made her villainous; it was her method, and her methods haven't changed.

Starlight is like an arsonist who thinks the problem was that she tried to burn down the wrong house, not that she uses fire to resolve her conflicts. She has promised to not burn down the same house she was going after before, she she still doesn't understand that she's not supposed to burn anything down, and continues playing with lighters all the time.

That said, I wouldn't necessarily say that you can "earn" redemption, because redemption, in this contex, isn't a thing. It's a process. It's something you do. Starlight's redemption is the process of her recognizing the wrongness of her previous actions and making an effort to improve herself so as not to repeat those wrongs.

That's not redemption, that's reformation. Reformation is the process of recognizing your faults and changing. Redemption is the point where you have demonstrated your reformation is genuine and lasting, and earned back the trust and acceptance you broke with your previous actions from both the people you hurt, and from yourself.

edited 22nd Jan '17 11:17:51 AM by Wryte

Starlight saved four princesses from the Changelings and helped to overthrow Queen Chrysalis as the ruler of the Changeling kingdom.

I'd say that kinda makes up for it a bit.

And she's recognized over and over again that she's been in the wrong, so yeah, you kinda missed a lot.

edited 22nd Jan '17 11:24:27 AM by AdricDePsycho

It's a slow but steady redemption.

^^ Like I said yesterday, if you've lost your audience before you get to the good stuff, you've failed as a storyteller.

I don't see much of a loss in audience.

I mean, people have dropped the show constantly, so how is this any different?

edited 22nd Jan '17 12:00:26 PM by AdricDePsycho

I like how she keeps screwing up. It makes her a more interesting Sunset Shimmer. That is, Sunset dealt with the external conflict of her past, Starlight is dealing with the internal and that pathos is far more my cup of tea.

Well, it might be true for some people. Subjectivity and all that.

Anywho, I'm-a mention one of the things I'll be doing in my fanfics, just to throw it out there and see if anyone cares.

There will be a Harry Dresden pony, one "Blackstone", because I see him a lot in other fanfics and I love littering my place with references. Except, rather than make this human wizard's alt!universe pony!self be a unicorn like almost everyone else does, I figured I'd make him a pegasus and explain him using the exact same style of magic through my verse's particular brand of pegasus magic.

"Trade Ya!" was all over the place.

I finally decided to finish watching the episode with the yaks. If I had a low opinion of the yaks before, I have an even lower opinion of them now. (At least the ones who were visiting Equestria. The yak kid seemed okay, and who knows what the actual people in Yakyakistan would be like, since they didn't bother to show us.)

Personally, I think the episode could have been improved if they just toned down the property destruction and skipped the declaration of war.

But that's just me. Was anyone else actually okay with all that?

Yeah, they should've toned it down some. I liked the yaks well enough, but they got kind of annoying.

Most people found that the yaks were kind of being dickbags. I mean, cultural differences are one thing, but that was just being ridiculous.

And then they still act like the "war" was Twilight's fault.