Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
(Avatar by Coffee)
Number C39: Utopia Ray Victory. That's what you were describing, no?
edited 5th Feb '16 6:59:11 PM by desdendelle
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
The law in the night
To be fair it would sound like a good plot of a Deus-Ex like game, but if it is a strategy game it would certainly be a suicide bombing/rocket spam/kidnapping simulator for the Palestinian side and a aerial bombing/artillery/bulldozing simulator for the IDF.
Inter arma enim silent leges
Party Crasher
So a CnC: Generals mod?
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
The law in the night
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Close, A Tiberium Wars mod actually.
Indiana Solo
"Need MORE money? Depending on the faction you can; Export Oil, capture News Vans or deploy Pop-up Ads."
![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
edited 5th Feb '16 8:06:12 PM by Joesolo
I'm baaaaaaack
(Avatar by Coffee)
This mod is really interesting and makes me sorry that I don't own C&C 3.
Pop-up ads: the tool of conquering irritants! 
(Avatar by Coffee)
I think this quote is relevant:
edited 5th Feb '16 8:35:50 PM by desdendelle
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Indiana Solo
Most of the heavily political threads are like this. Heated/lukewarm arguments and discussion, occasional derail into hilarity. And, lets be honest, we could all use more lightheartedness in our lives.
I'm baaaaaaack
Amen.
PS - I keep mistaking you for Canid, Joesolo. Staaahp! 
A procrastination in of itself
True, though with all our IR cred I'd still love to play some Diplomacy with some folks.
That's Marq's point, you (a pro-Israel person) calling what was done "Stealing land from Palestinians" proves how fucked up it is.
edited 6th Feb '16 4:57:24 AM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
(Avatar by Coffee)
Well, it's pretty much all but proven that all of those deals are faked, ie, they stole the property, and the guys they stole from are Palestinians; I don't see what's the big deal.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Indiana Solo
yea I'm gonna change it back soon. Was just doing this because he got banned from one thread and I was unhappy about it
edited 6th Feb '16 8:18:57 AM by Joesolo
I'm baaaaaaack
Because a lot of pro-Israel people (whether or not they actually are from Israel) keep up the farce that it wasn't what it was.
Ah, gotcha.
edited 6th Feb '16 8:25:25 AM by FFShinra
United Earth
Desdenelle, I really respect that your commitment to honesty is such.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
V
@ desdendelle:
In what ways is the Israeli Government dysfunctional? Well, I know that the Knesset is insane, but I wondering if you could expand on that and- how do things actually get done in Israel?
edited 6th Feb '16 8:40:22 AM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On
United Earth
Dude, that's a huge question. If one asked you the same about the UK, where would you even begin? "Watch The Thick Of It and In The Loop and then ask me once more?"
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
(Avatar by Coffee)
Where do we start...? Catapulting a book depicting a love story between an Israeli woman and a Palestinian to the best seller list by trying to ban it, trying to censor a moderately popular political blog, funding the corrupt, pointless state Kashrut monopoly, trying to pass a law basically marking any none-right-wing NGOs as TR-8Rs (didn't manage to do it, so far), wanting to take steps against MKs who visited terrorists' families and encouraged them (legit) while not doing that for all such MKs (not legit — Ayelet Shaked, I'm looking at you, here), paying money to the Haredi parties in a way that perpetuates the Haredim's poverty and illiteracy... I can go on and on. That's just off the top of my head.
edited 6th Feb '16 8:59:23 AM by desdendelle
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
United Earth
The Haredim are illiterate? I thought they did nothing but Bible Study All Day Long?!
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
V
...and I guess nobody fixes the potholes, either?
(Avatar by Coffee)
Wrong choice of words, there. They can read/write for the most part. The thing is, though, all they do is study Mishnah and whatnot, so their "schools" prepare them even less for life than the rest of the Israeli education system. Combine that with the fact that they don't do army service — which, whatever you may say about it, teaches you a lot and matures you (assuming you actually do something) — and you have a huge population that's perpetually in poverty and has less chances of getting better every generation.
EDIT: the roads are fine, for the most part.
edited 6th Feb '16 9:11:12 AM by desdendelle
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
And they're gonna replace most of the Israeli Jewish population through sheer outbreeding, correct?
(Avatar by Coffee)
Technically they're also Israeli Jews. But, yeah, given enough time, they'd outbreed the secular Israelis.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
I should have clarified that as among Israeli Jews. Sorry.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
... What the heck is that?
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.