Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
Shameful Display
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The fact that it commands the military wing, at least that's my understanding of the relationship.
The point is that HAMAS being labeled terrorists for being terrorists contradict the claim that the Palestinians are treated as innocent no matter what they do. Silasw didn't claim HAMAS military wing isn't a terrorist organization.
A procrastination in of itself
I think it comes down to how much actual command there is, I don't actually know how autonomous the military wing is, so I'd say that's a defining condition.
In fairness I think Jack does get that.
edited 18th Nov '15 3:34:01 PM by Silasw
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Shameful Display
No he didn't, he asked why the Civilian wing should be considered a terrorist organization, and I gave him my reasons.
edited 18th Nov '15 4:21:01 PM by JackOLantern1337
I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Indiana Solo
If there's a group that has a military wing that does terrible things, and a political wing that supports that group while it does said terrible things, the political branch is still partly responsible.
If that sounds awkwardly worded I'm just trying to avoid going full Godwin's Law.
I'm baaaaaaack
A procrastination in of itself
I agree, but what I'm unsure of it how much authority the civilian wing has over the military wing, if there's no authority then they're not so much a terrorist organisation as supporters of a terrorist organisation.
edited 18th Nov '15 4:12:19 PM by Silasw
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
Palestinian Village Uses Israeli Biogas as Alternative Source of Energy
Palestinian villagers living in desolate, off-grid areas in the West Bank have begun using Israeli-made biogas generators that supply free, clean energy by gobbling up organic waste.
The portable, household "anaerobic digesters" made by Israeli start-up company Home Bio Gas turn food leftovers and manure into methane for cooking and lighting.
They can be taken along if people living in ramshackle huts or tent dwellers, such as local Bedouin, decide to relocate or move home.
"Home Bio Gas has invented this simple digester that can easily be assembled and transported," said Palestinian engineer Amer Rabayah, who coordinates installation of the devices. Rural West Bank areas that Palestinians want as part of a future state with the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem have been left under-developed, largely reliant on donations from foreign states and international aid agencies.
"(In) this area ... there is no water or electricity. We have no services," said local resident and digester owner Nayef Zayid. Around 40 digesters have been set up in a pilot project at the Palestinian village of al-Awja in the central West Bank's Jordan Valley.
The European Union has funded the project to the tune of some 500,000 euros ($559,750), and the Peres Center for Peace, set up by former Israeli president Shimon Peres, facilitated Israeli-Palestinian cooperation.
A group of Israeli and Palestinian volunteers helped assemble the digesters, which take about three hours to install. Some digesters have also been provided to Bedouin in Israel in partnership with the Arava Institute for Environmental Studies, based in the arid Negev desert.
Healthy option
Oshik Efrati, chief executive officer of Home Bio Gas, said he hoped the product would save many lives in rural areas across the world where smoke from cooking on an open fire causes severe respiratory illness and death.
Up to 2.7 billion people live in under-served communities with no access to clean energy and waste disposal services, Home Bio Gas says, while 4.3 million women and children die each year due to inhaling smoke from indoor open fires.
The company aims to expand its production capacity and enlist governments and aid agencies to buy digesters for impoverished communities, but plans are still in their infancy, Efrati said. "This system will be available to everyone that needs it in the developing world. It will eliminate waste, it makes clean gas, and there is no need to breathe in any smoke," he said.
A fermentation process to produce the gas is precipitated when bacteria is added in powder or liquid form to a mix of water and waste. The bacteria then multiply to create a self-perpetuating process.
Rich liquid fertilizer, a byproduct of the process, can also be used to boost crop growth for a population that largely relies on agriculture for income, Efrati explained. Home Bio Gas declined to discuss a retail price for the digester, whose materials and construction costs amount to a few hundred dollars. It is best suited for use in warm climates. The company also sees affluent, environmentally aware Western consumers as future clients for its product, which will be sold to them for profit, marketing director Ami Amir said.
edited 25th Nov '15 10:05:00 AM by FluffyMcChicken
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
... I'm crossing my fingers over whether or not this is secretly an economic-imperialist ploy on part of the Israeli government and/or non-governmental supporters in Israeli-based business entities and other organizations.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Given that Israel stiffles Palestinian competition (such as by restricting Palestinians' ability to move around the West Bank, which the World Bank blames for the sky high unemployment in the area) then any economic activity by Israeli companies kinda has to be seen as part of economic imperialism.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
There is the possibility that the company itself may not have any such intentions, but also is unaware that its government and/or infuential Israeli magnates with similar motivations to the government are manipulating the company in a subtle manner to do their dirty work for them.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
There's no need for the company to have such intentions and they likely don't. It doesn't matter. All Israel needs to do is cripple Palestinian enterprise then wait for the inevitable result. And Jews-only roads are not a minor manipulation of the economy.
A procrastination in of itself
I think it's most likely just a basic thing of the Israeli goverment being happy that it can get away with not doing its job but not suffer the bad PR of Palestinians dying due to lack of services.
edited 25th Nov '15 1:43:58 PM by Silasw
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
United Earth
So many third-world governments pull this kind of shit...
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Indiana Solo
"Israeli-made biogas generators that supply free, clean energy by gobbling up organic waste. The portable, household "anaerobic digesters" made by Israeli start-up company Home Bio Gas turn food leftovers and manure into methane for cooking and lighting."
Are you telling me Israel invented the Mr. Fusion years ago and no one knows about it?
I'm baaaaaaack
The dark Mage of the playground
A rising number of people outside the bank and in it are looking for alternate sources of electricity because the Israeli Electricity company is utter shit.
Its only redeeming quality is the fact that its mascots are a gay puppet couple with a puppet son.
V
To clarify, that does include people inside the main parts of Israel?
Keep Rolling On
The dark Mage of the playground
Well its mostly in agricultural villages, not main cities or towns, in the more remote parts of the country.
V
Ah, oknote . Somehow, I guess rural broadband is another issue?note ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
The dark Mage of the playground
Yeah, prices, lack of willingness to put up with incompetence (like major outages and such EVERY SINGLE WINTER) and that Farmer's Ideal of being self sufficiant.
Current governorment doesnt like these, as Independent Farmers represent the political Left and the first Aliyas, and the dumb masses hate them because they represent the Upper Middle Class Ashkenazi Elite that they were led to blame with all their oroblems by Menachem Begin back in the 70s.
Shameful Display
The UK still has rural parts?
V
Of course it does. By our standards, and certainly by Israel's...
A procrastination in of itself
Rural enough for entire areas to have jokes like this. "It's not a real Norfolk wedding until you have a speech from the father of the bride and groom".
HGW XX/7
United Earth
I am not amused.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
What makes Hamas' civilian wing a terrorist group? Or more precisely, what factors make Hamas' civilian wing a terrorist group that don't also apply to at least parts of the Israeli political far-right?
Also I'm curious (as in I legitimately don't know the answer to this), are Israeli setter groups that engage in terrorism labelled terrorists by the Israeli government or by western governments?
edited 18th Nov '15 3:20:52 PM by Silasw
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran