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Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.

At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.

So, let's start off:

At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.

The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".

Key issues of the talks:

  • Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.

  • Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.

  • Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.

So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.

Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:

edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#7376: Mar 26th 2015 at 1:10:50 PM

"You missed how Amnesty's also pointed out that the IDF makes more active and enthusiastic use of human shields, then?"

No, I didn't? I didn't say anything about it.

"The way it usually goes during a Gaza campaign is that both sides store weapons in and launch attacks from civilian buildings, but the IDF specifically imprisons civilians in those buildings to make them less inviting targets, and brings along hostages when assaulting Hamas positions."

Yea, no. Israelis don't base most of their forces in the middle of heavily populated urban areas. Yes they use human shields. It's not right. I never said it was. It's like you didn't even read what I posted

" Both sides commit war crimes, and saying 'at least the IDF try to protect civilians' is just factually untrue."

My post is literally right above yours, and I didn't say that at all. If you're going to quote, use copy paste. I never said that. I said they try to avoid them. Like when they give advance notice before bombing buildings and other such things.

I'm baaaaaaack
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#7377: Mar 26th 2015 at 1:14:11 PM

Also Hamas rockets killed more Palestinian civilians than Israeli's.

That seems flatly impossible. Rocket victims are counted in the tens. Gaza dead civilians are counted in thousand upon thousands.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#7378: Mar 26th 2015 at 1:17:54 PM

[up] I meant that their rockets,as in rockets they launched, killed more Palestinians than they did Israeli's, with 6 Israeli's dying due to Hamas rockets, vs 13 Palestinians falling to those same rockets.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#7379: Mar 26th 2015 at 1:37:47 PM

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#7380: Mar 26th 2015 at 3:12:59 PM

[up][up] Due to, as it was called during The Troubles, an "Own Goal"note ?

Keep Rolling On
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#7381: Mar 26th 2015 at 3:22:05 PM

Well well well, look what Obama just had declassified.

In a development that has largely been missed by mainstream media, the Pentagon early last month quietly declassified a Department of Defense top-secret document detailing Israel's nuclear program, a highly covert topic that Israel has never formally announced to avoid a regional nuclear arms race, and which the US until now has respected by remaining silent.

But by publishing the declassified document from 1987, the US reportedly breached the silent agreement to keep quiet on Israel's nuclear powers for the first time ever, detailing the nuclear program in great depth.

Read it here.

Obama: Your move, Bibi.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#7382: Mar 26th 2015 at 3:27:45 PM

So basically...Israel has nukes?

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#7383: Mar 26th 2015 at 3:34:13 PM

It's that the US is done covering for Israel and playing the neither confirm or deny game for it.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#7384: Mar 26th 2015 at 3:35:24 PM

So the U.S can finally be the Permanent Security Council member of the U.N that no longer has the majority of vetos

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#7385: Mar 26th 2015 at 3:54:33 PM

Israel having nukes is famous as being the worst keep secret in the world for quite some time. This just means the US isn't covering for it anymore, but Israel will almost definitely continue the whole "won't confirm/deny" thing because they really don't want everyone else getting nukes too. And really, the world at large shouldn't desire the Middle east to be full of nuclear states.

[up] The USSR/Russia still about 40 more vetos than the US.

edited 26th Mar '15 4:00:20 PM by Joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#7386: Mar 26th 2015 at 3:55:48 PM

[up] And quite frankly, the rest of the Middle East don't want to be Nuclear States either, so it all balances out.

Keep Rolling On
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#7387: Mar 26th 2015 at 7:09:31 PM

They may not, but they also don't want to be held to the whim of another state in the region. Israel bringing nukes into the region ensures some other state will.

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#7388: Mar 26th 2015 at 7:21:43 PM

[up][up] They don't but if Israel openly does then it's a problem for them to NOT have them. We've got a good Useful Notes page on it actually, lemme find it

Here it is.

TLDR version with important tidbits

"Israel has nukes. Unofficially."

The Arabs states really don't want to fight Israel anymore, and it provides an excuse.

If it was official, the Arab states would have a legal reason with withdraw from the non-proliferation agreement. They don't WANT to (mostly) so by not disputing the unofficial nature of it, they don't have any impetuous to get them.

edited 26th Mar '15 7:29:52 PM by Joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#7389: Mar 26th 2015 at 9:14:35 PM

This is all very amusing, and more than a little scary.

No fucks Obama is not to be fucked with.

To Bibi:

edited 26th Mar '15 10:18:33 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Stratostygo3 The Harbinger of Chaos. from Dominion of Antarctica Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
The Harbinger of Chaos.
#7390: Mar 27th 2015 at 8:04:48 AM

"It's that the US is done covering for Israel and playing the neither confirm or deny game for it."

Welp, I'm in a VERY good mood today.

Thanks Obama!

The world is inherently chaotic no amount of religion, conspiracy or wishful thinking will change that, accept it, and move on.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#7391: Mar 27th 2015 at 9:53:53 AM

My post is literally right above yours, and I didn't say that at all. If you're going to quote, use copy paste. I never said that. I said they try to avoid them. Like when they give advance notice before bombing buildings and other such things.

You responded to findings on Hamas using civilian buildings as cover during cityfighting with the following:

Been sick of people trying to justify complete disregard for civilian casualties. Say what you will be at least the IDF tries to avoid them.

The thing is that when it heads into Gaza, the IDF does the exact same thing, only it actively prevents civilians from leaving their homes (or herds them into homes it's using as cover). Same tactics, extra nasty gloss on top. This is also untrue:

Yea, no. Israelis don't base most of their forces in the middle of heavily populated urban areas.

The IDF headquarters is right in the middle of downtown Tel Aviv. Now, this bit I'm not blaming them for, because it's actually quite normal for important military installations to be in the middle of population centres. More damningly, though, the Amnesty Interntional Cast Lead report indicates that the standard IDF ground tactic during the operation was to roll into residential areas and start blasting away indiscriminately until Hamas militants were goaded into counterattacking.

I said they try to avoid them. Like when they give advance notice before bombing buildings and other such things.

They don't try very hard there, and certainly not hard enough to satisfy international law. To cite Amnesty International again:

Other civilian homes have been hit using the “knock on the roof” procedure, in which Israeli forces fire a small missile at the home as a “warning”, before firing another missile which destroys the home. In some but not all cases, families receive telephone calls from the Israeli military in advance.

“There is no way that firing a missile at a civilian home can constitute an effective ‘warning’. Amnesty International has documented cases of civilians killed or injured by such missiles in previous Israeli military operations on the Gaza Strip,” said Philip Luther.

Effective advance warning to civilians is only one of the prescribed precautions in attack aimed at minimizing harm to civilians. When Israeli forces have given warning in many cases key elements of effective warning have been missing, including timeliness, informing civilians where it is safe to flee, and providing safe passage and sufficient time to flee before an attack. There also have been reports of lethal strikes launched too soon after a warning to spare civilians. In any event, issuing a warning does not absolve an attacking force of its obligations to spare civilians, including by taking all other necessary precautions to minimize civilian casualties and damage to civilian structures. Israel’s continuing military blockade on the Gaza Strip and the closure of the Rafah crossing by the Egyptian authorities since the hostilities began mean that civilians in Gaza cannot flee to neighbouring countries.

The Cast Lead report goes into more detail - basically, warnings tend to be vague and broadly-distributed enough that they do little but cause panic and, perversely, put civilians in even greater danger.

In related news:

GAZA — It’s evening, and the neighborhood of Shejaiya is completely dark. Metal rods hang at odd angles off of crumbling skeletons of buildings, and occasionally the pale neon glow of an LED flashlight illuminates a face walking by.

More than 2,000 Gazans were killed during Israel’s Operation Protective Edge last year. The 51-day offensive flattened large swathes of the Gaza Strip and turned much of Shejaiya and other neighborhoods into ash-colored wastelands. More than seven months later, 100,000 people are still homeless.

Gaza still looks almost exactly as it did a week after the shelling ended. Only 5 percent of the $5.4 billion in aid pledged by international donors at a conference in Cairo last year has been disbursed — meaning aid agencies have had to cut services for destitute Gazans. The lack of funding has replaced access to construction materials as the main obstacle to rebuilding. Oxfam said last month that at the current rate, rebuilding Gaza would take more than a hundred years.

The sheer level of destruction in Gaza is hard to take in. Much of it is rubble. Children, undeterred by their surroundings, play in and around damaged buildings or collect pieces of their former homes to sell to factory owners. The living situation is so bad that many warn another round of fighting is inevitable.

More than 120,000 homes were damaged or destroyed during the summer offensive. Moussa Mohamed Hamdeya’s was one of them.

“When we left, we didn’t take money or clothes or anything,” says Hamdeya, 54. “When we came back we found that everything had been burned. Everything we’re wearing now was given to us by other people.”

Hamdeya and 11 other family members now live in a three-room structure with no windows.

Before the offensive he worked in construction, but the shelling destroyed his warehouse, and his livelihood along with it.

This month, after a funding shortfall of $585 billion, the United Nations’ relief agency had to stop providing rent subsidies to homeless families and cash to those whose homes were partially destroyed, a move that affects about 80,000 people. If the payments do not resume, Hamdeya will be forced to move his family of 12 back into a UN school classroom where they lived until November of last year.

Gaza residents say that in previous offensives the Israeli army targeted militant infrastructure or houses where known fighters lived.

“This time the shelling was random, the damage was random,” says Hajj Abdel Khalil el-Helou, whose house was badly shelled.

At 80, el-Helou lived through the formation of the State of Israel in 1948, attacks by the Israeli army in ’56, and the Six-Day War in ’67. Sometime in the mid-20th century his leg was blown off by an Israeli sniper. He and his wife cannot agree on exactly when. His house was shelled during each of the last three wars — but this time was different, he says.

“This time was a million times worse! This was the worst thing, the worst in my life, the worst in history!”

El-Helou lost about 50 relatives in last summer’s offensive, including a family of 12, all of them killed in one house.

This time Israeli bombs flattened his shop as well. Now he has no money and no way to work.

“I do not think I will rebuild this time,” he says. When asked about what he thinks will happen in the future, he says, “God knows. No one can expect anything anymore. In Gaza there is no life. But our neighbor’s situation is worse than ours, God help them.”

Widespread homelessness is increasing the strain on families who are already struggling.

Hanadi al-Najjar, 30, contracted cancer after exposure to white phosphorus during the 2008-2009 Gaza offensive. Hers is one of hundreds of displaced families now living in Gulf-funded temporary shelters. Sick and homeless, she can no longer take care of her six children. She had to put them in an orphanage.

“We visit them whenever we can afford it,” she says. That’s usually about once or twice a month.

Electricity as a weapon

But even those who are still in their homes are facing extreme difficulties.

Six hours of electricity a day, sometimes less, is not enough to refrigerate food. Unable to store perishables for long, some Gazans are living from one meal to the next.

Gaza’s only power plant was bombed in 2006. It was hit again during last summer’s offensive. It began operating again at reduced capacity but stopped earlier this month because of a tax dispute between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority. The rest of Gaza’s electricity comes via cables from Israel and Egypt.

“Electricity is the mother of services,” says Jamal al-Dardasawy, spokesman for the Gaza Electricity Distribution Company. “They hit electricity and all the services stop.”

The main warehouse for materials to maintain the electrical grid was also hit.

“It’s all charcoal, even the cables turned to liquid,” says al-Dardasawy.

Even before the offensive, electricity in Gaza only arrived in eight-hour blocks, each followed by the same amount of time without.

“Israel uses electricity as a weapon,” he says. “The shells fall here and there, and not everyone dies, right? But all people feel the electricity crisis, from the small child to the old man.”

For al-Dardasawy it’s the little indignities that are the most painful; not the bread lines he saw in September, but the sight of an old man waiting for five hours for the electricity to come on so he can take the elevator to get up to his apartment.

Gargling with seawater

Since the summer, many Gazans have struggled to access clean water and adequate sanitation.

Brushing your teeth with the briny stuff that flows from faucets here feels like gargling with seawater. When you drive down the coast, you can smell the 40 thousand cubic meters of untreated sewage gushing into the Mediterranean.

Much of the water infrastructure in the eastern Gaza Strip, near the border with Israel, was completely destroyed in the last offensive.

In Beit Hanoun, where once there were well-appointed houses and green farmland, there is now little but rubble. The US Agency for International Development and Mercy Corps, a US-based development organization, have set up a joint project to distribute fresh water.

Throughout the day residents line up at the pumps with plastic buckets, while schoolchildren stop by to drink from them like water fountains.

Maher al-Najjar, deputy general director of Gaza’s Coastal Municipalities Water Utility, says that during the offensive his department gave the Israelis the coordinates of all water and wastewater facilities, hoping they would be spared during the air assault.

“But it seems they were targeting facilities without any restriction,” he says.

The water authority lost 12 staff members during the war. Under normal circumstances, repairs to the water system should take a year and a half. But al-Najjar says it is now so hard to acquire the materials it could take 20.

Many Gazans buy drinking water from private water tankers who have small desalination plants. Even the desalinated water is not very safe to drink.

The lack of electricity has brought commerce and manufacturing to a standstill.

Many farms were bombed during the war. Ibrahim Samarra, 47, is a farmer from the central Gaza Strip. He used to have 1,500 chickens.

“During the war they starved to death when we fled our homes,” he says. The area was too dangerous for him to come back and feed them.

Hatem Hassouna owned a group of factories in the Eastern Gaza Strip that made construction materials for UN projects. They were shelled during each of the last three offensives. Last summer the IDF used them as a base during the ground offensive. On the day the soldiers left, they razed the factories to the ground.

“There are no fighters in this area. I can think of no reason other than destroying the Gazan economy. One hundred and thirty people worked here,” Hassouna says.

Unemployment in Gaza doubled from around 108,000 in mid-2013 to over 200,000 in mid-2014. Because of the blockade imposed by Israel and Egypt since 2007, the Gazan economy is one of the most unstable in the world. Its unemployment and GDP per capita are comparable to those of Libya, Liberia or Sierra Leone.

The Israeli government says the blockade is necessary “because Hamas continues to declare its goal of killing Israelis” says Mark Regev, a spokesman for the prime minister’s office.

Meanwhile, in Israel, the word “Gaza” was hardly mentioned in the recent electoral campaign.

“In the past eight years there has been a steep drop in the willingness of Israelis to listen to Gazans,” says Sarit Michaeli, spokesperson for B’tselem, an Israeli human rights organization.

“There’s a lot of hatred. Israelis are afraid of tunnels and missiles,” she says. But most of the time, Gaza is out of sight, out of mind.

“Israelis can forget about Gaza as long as they’re not firing missiles.”

What's precedent ever done for us?
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#7392: Mar 27th 2015 at 10:41:40 AM

"The thing is that when it heads into Gaza, the IDF does the exact same thing,"

the IDF does not fire unguided rockets in the general direction of gaza, actually.

"only it actively prevents civilians from leaving their homes (or herds them into homes it's using as cover). Same tactics, extra nasty gloss on top."

Ground invasions in actual military garb in not the same tactics as random missiles being fired from hospitals and the roof of civilians homes. Preventing people from leaving homes into the middle of a war zone sounds fairly common sense to me anyway. Using them as cover, not so much.

"The IDF headquarters is right in the middle of downtown Tel Aviv"

Military headquarters are entirely different from military bases.

"More damningly, though, the Amnesty Interntional Cast Lead report indicates that the standard IDF ground tactic during the operation was to roll into residential areas and start blasting away indiscriminately until Hamas militants were goaded into counterattacking."

So they attacked the bases of the militants they were trying to fight? Interesting.

""I said they try to avoid them. Like when they give advance notice before bombing buildings and other such things." They don't try very hard there, and certainly not hard enough to satisfy international law. To cite Amnesty International again:..."

I didn't say they "try very hard". I said they try. They give some notice, which is more than anything hamas ever does. Never said they were perfect. They don't always follow the rules of war to a T. But they follow them far more closely than Hamas.

I'm baaaaaaack
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#7393: Mar 27th 2015 at 10:48:41 AM

So they attacked the bases of the militants they were trying to fight?

No, they set up shop in civilian areas and goad the enemy into attacking them, which actually is something Hamas does.

they follow them far more closely than Hamas.

So? It's not a competition, Hamas are less brutal that ISIS, the IRA were less brutal that Hamas are, they're still all fucked up terrorist organisations.

edited 27th Mar '15 10:50:18 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
desdendelle (Avatar by Coffee) from Land of Milk and Honey (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Writing a love letter
(Avatar by Coffee)
#7394: Mar 27th 2015 at 10:49:46 AM

It's not a competition, no, but it means that the IDF is less bad than Hamas. A lot of people seem to ignore that.

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#7395: Mar 27th 2015 at 10:51:14 AM

Sure but on the flip side a lot of people seem to ignore that being better than Hamas doesn't make what the IDF does good or in any way right.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#7396: Mar 27th 2015 at 10:52:55 AM

I generally kill less puppies than the average serial killer, if I am an apt comparison for the situation.

I do not actually kill puppies

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
desdendelle (Avatar by Coffee) from Land of Milk and Honey (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Writing a love letter
(Avatar by Coffee)
#7397: Mar 27th 2015 at 10:57:18 AM

[up][up] I think someone posted something about biases a few days ago. Everybody has them.

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#7398: Mar 27th 2015 at 11:06:48 AM

[up][up] How many does the average series killer kill?

[up] O very much so.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#7399: Mar 27th 2015 at 11:17:30 AM

I do not know and I do NOT want to know.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#7400: Mar 27th 2015 at 11:44:30 AM

[up][up]I'd say between 5 and 10 in countries with a respectable police force.

And from who the hell knows to far too many on countries without a decent police force.

From second hand accounts I've heard from a friend in the police force that there is a killer who impales the heads of homeless boys from 9-15 years old with a metal pipe in my hometown. He said there were at least 9 bodies from the same guy but the body count is speculated to be higher than 20 due to the bodies they didn't found crossing with missing people reports. Of course the police quarters never released anything to the public because they don't want to look even more bad and because no one "important" died.

When the murder solving rate is between 5% to 8% you can be sure any serial killer would have a lifetime of impunity for the other 90% murders.

Inter arma enim silent leges

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