Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
There are plenty of sane Israelis out there, but the trouble is that it's the Ultra-Orthodox who have the most children.
Shameful Display
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In all due fairness, from the perspective of anyone with some degree of rationality, giving away territory to the people who have publicly sworn to wipe you from the map doesn't sound very sane. And make no mistake, if an independent and Democratic Palestinian state is established,Hamas will come to power,at least for a few years. Not to mention some of the other Arab states may see destroying Israel as a way to distract their populations. And they are supposed to trust that the West to aid them, in spite of the US's habit of abandoning allies,especially ones as controversial as Israel. True it has to be done, but that doesn't mean it isn't rational for people to oppose giving ground.
A procrastination in of itself
Neither does not fighting back against an enemy who keeps taking your territory and killing your people. Same with disarming in the face of an opponent who has no issue with destroying the lives of unarmed civilians.
Besides it's not "giving away", that implies that the territory belongs to Israel in the first place, it (by which I mean the West Bank (does the West in that trip anyone else up? I get why it's there but it bugs me, seeing as the West Bank is to East of Israel)and Gaza) doesn't.
It all comes down to how you phrase it. I'd say returning stolen property to someone who is pissed at you for stealing his property makes total sense.
Plus I'm pretty sure the Israel government could find some people to deal with. Even if Fatah are to crazy there will be someone willing to speak out against violence against Israel in exchange for land. Hell they could start abroad, get eh Jordanians to condemn an attack on Israel civilians and in exchange remove a settlements. Pull that trick a few times and people will begin to cotton on that the more such attacks are condemned and stopped the more settlements will get removed.
That depends entirely on how such a Palestine is established. If it's established so that the alternative to a caring Hamas that feed people is a corrupt Fatah that does nothing to protect its citizens, that yeah. But if you've got a legitimate alternative or even a murder happy Hamas that keeps nobody safe (as we've got now) than you're looking at a different story.
This trick has been dead for years, it's not coming back outside of Syria. Assad has tried it and between the IDF and his own citizenry he's getting nowhere. Gadaffi is gone, the Egyptian military like the peace more than the Egyptian people. The Jordanians have no interest in playing that game anymore and the Sauds have Iran as their boogyman.
No they're supposed to trust that their military (which is strong enough to defeat everyone around them) can keep them safe without the annexation and settlement of civilian land. Plus if you look at the US's record I'd say it's pretty loyal, especially to the more crazy allies. The US isn't going to stop supporting Saudi Arabia any time soon.
Also there's a new international understanding, nobody gets to wipe out entire countries these days. You've got to be a massive player to even get away with annexing part of another country, never mind a whole one.
This isn't the old game of state V state any more, we've started caring about the people as well as the states, that's changed things dramatically.
edited 27th Nov '14 8:54:23 PM by SilasW
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
V
Of course you know why the EU does that? The Holocaust.
I wouldn't trust the Republicans. I'm quite sure some would want the US to go totally isolationist, including withdrawal from NATO and the UN.
edited 28th Nov '14 12:10:50 AM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On
HGW XX/7
Ironically, Israel is more likely to complain about EU aid to Palestine and EU funding of Israeli and Palestinian NGOs. Both sides seem to dislike the EU, which makes me think Brussels is doing something right.
Schild und Schwert der Partei
United Earth
Yeah, well, we've seen the respect with which Israeli treat holocaust survivors who won't let their horrific experience be used as an excuse to justify inflicting further horror onwards. The answer to "Never again means never again for anyone" is "Hitler should have finished the job", huh?
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Plus nobody is goign to place an embargo on Israel, the US doesn't even have an embargo on North Korea
That one might actually happen with the withdrawal of US support. One of the things that pushed South Africa into ending apartheid faster was a string of international boycotts against their products. The real question is whether we're going to end with a one-state or two-state solution. Most of the negotiations so far have been geared towards two-state, and that's certainly what Palestine wants, but the West Bank is so badly carved up
◊ and Gaza so increasingly unlivable that an end to apartheid and equal rights for Palestinians might end up being the only feasible option.
edited 28th Nov '14 3:29:14 AM by Iaculus
What's precedent ever done for us?
United Earth
That's incompatible with 'the Jewish State'.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Certainly, but the demographics are working against that anyway. Israeli Arabs and African immigrants are a fast-growing part of the country's population, and the more of them there are, the tougher it is to politically sustain discriminatory measures against them and still retain the pretence of a democracy. If the Palestinians can survive until that particular time-bomb hits, they might see a surprising upturn in their fortunes.
edited 28th Nov '14 3:42:01 AM by Iaculus
What's precedent ever done for us?
United Earth
I think the Israeli would resort to extreme measures rather than let that happen.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Possible, but at that point they can kiss their more enthusiastic international support goodbye. The US's patience is being stretched to its limits as-is. Any apartheid measure that would either remove their much-touted selling point as 'the only true democracy in the Middle East' or put a serious dent in non-Jewish population growth would probably be the last straw.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
The IDF's chief rabbi demonstrates his stunning grasp of Abrahamic theology.
Not really, not Israeli Arabs anyway. While their growth rate is still higher than the growth rate of Israeli Jews, it's trending down, especially since the turn of the millennium. According to the Central Bureau of Statistics, in 2002 roughly 30% of the newborn were Arab. By 2013, only about 24% of the newborn were Arab.
edited 28th Nov '14 4:13:05 AM by Cag
United Earth
Now I'm worried that Israeli officials are running around acting with this kind of extreme confidence and self-assurance over completely inaccurate assumptions. I'm also worried about what they teach with that authoritative tone of theirs to their youth and students.
edited 28th Nov '14 4:28:10 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
The only thing that guy is "right" about is that Jerusalem the city is not actually mentioned in the Quran. The Holy Mosque of Al-Aqsa, however, is mentioned by name in the account of the Isra (the Prophet Muhammed's journey to Heaven, via Jerusalem as the earthly "checkpoint") and when it talks about switching the qibla from Al-Aqsa to the Ka'aba, thus making it an indirect mention of Jerusalem.
Oh, and for the record, Jerusalem itself would have no special value in Islam without Al-Aqsa.
edited 28th Nov '14 5:27:04 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
V
Which is the epicentre of the whole conflict, as it is also Temple Mount.
And also on a similar subject has anybody heard about the conflict within the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and the Immovable Ladder?
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It's a common view amongst the Left.
edited 28th Nov '14 5:39:34 AM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On
The dark Mage of the playground
My country and people became a cartoon to you while bloodthirsy terrorists became agitated oppressed poor people.
Have a good life, im not coming back here.
HGW XX/7
"It's our funny shaped rock and cave!" "No, it's our funny shaped rock and cave!" etc.
edited 28th Nov '14 5:38:13 AM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
... Seriously? So much controversy and violence over that?!
Shameful Display
Congrats it seems we run a thread about Israel and Palestine without any Israeli's or Palestinians.
I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
HGW XX/7
@Superdark
"Bloodthirsty terrorists" is just as much of a caricature of Palestinians as some posters' views are of Israeli people.
edited 28th Nov '14 6:32:38 AM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Wait, we don't have any Palestinian tropers at all?
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
Not any that actively post in this thread at the moment, at least.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
Because I'm in the middle of ranting okay
I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.